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  1. #371
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Would YOU consider it double homicide if someone killed a pregnant woman?
    Not morally, but I have no sympathy for someone who killed a pregnant women getting two murder charges. Legally, I think it makes sense to make hurting pregnant women more punishable.

  2. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Not morally, but I have no sympathy for someone who killed a pregnant women getting two murder charges. Legally, I think it makes sense to make hurting pregnant women more punishable.
    Legally that makes even less sense than morally, for the reasons we've already mentioned. Morally, why is it worse when someone kills a woman carrying a fetus, yet there's nothing wrong when the woman with the fetus kills it?

  3. #373
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Legally that makes even less sense than morally, for the reasons we've already mentioned. Morally, why is it worse when someone kills a woman carrying a fetus, yet there's nothing wrong when the woman with the fetus kills it?
    Just don't..

  4. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Just don't have an answer.
    Alright then.

  5. #375
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Yikes. You don't even know how good of a parent you or the father will be, even if you are married and plan your child. Also, are you saying it's better if people who were subjected to abuse as kids were not ever born? Your child could be abused by a family member without your consent, your kid could be born with a defect, your child could be run over by a car. Everyone has crappy things happen in life.

    This really has nothing to do with the abortion discussion, I just couldn't handle seeing that post stand without the other side being mentioned.
    Ok, I got bored enough to read through half of this pointless thread so I may as well answer.

    Yes, I absolutely would rather be responsible for "no child" existing than for bringing an unwanted child into this world. I feel very strongly about this if it is my potential child. Crappy things happen to everyone, yes...that does NOT mean that you should go around bringing misery to others.

    I don't believe in fate, so I'm not going to speculate about "whether people should be born". I just know that I'm not going to create a human being and then throw it away to the mercy of society. And if you read my post you will know that I am very reluctant to abort, too, which is why I'm incredibly paranoid about avoiding that situation because I don't want to have to make that decision.

    I'm not arguing abortion because it's pointless, a waste of energy that would be better spend arguing that (for instance) the government should subsidize birth control and education. I just wanted to explain my post since apparently it seems unreasonable (???).
    -end of thread-

  6. #376
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm not arguing abortion because it's pointless, a waste of energy that would be better spend arguing that (for instance) the government should subsidize birth control and education. I just wanted to explain my post since apparently it seems unreasonable (???).
    It is pointless. Politically, it's already a finished debate. Repealing Roe v. Wade or making abortion illegal is completely off the table.

    Pro-choicers have essentially won, all over the developed world, and I think pro-lifers would be more wise to pick new battles instead of fighting already lost ones.

  7. #377
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    -the thread continues-

    ok, ok..so, basically what we have here is a failure to communicate. I'm curious to know reasons behind the reasons for the two major sides of this issue.

    The proposition of the pro-abortion crowd seems to be that the rights of the individual pregnant woman over the biological process supersede the rights of what may, or may not, become another, individual human in the future.

    What is the basis for a woman's right to control her body?

    The proposition of the anti-abortion crowd seems to be that the rights of the fetus/unborn child supersede the rights of the pregnant woman to her own body.

    What gives the fetus more authority than the woman without which said fetus cannot survive?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #378
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ This is my thinking, on the authority aspect. I'll put my two cents in here anyways.

    Even if someone is against abortion, having abortion available is a necessity, whether it is used or not. Women have a right to privacy, and women have a right to have a safe, sterile environment. I think the availability of abortion is not, and should never be, debatable. Only the belief in using those availabilities.
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  9. #379
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ This is my thinking, on the authority aspect. I'll put my two cents in here anyways.

    Even if someone is against abortion, having abortion available is a necessity, whether it is used or not. Women have a right to privacy, and women have a right to have a safe, sterile environment. I think the availability of abortion is not, and should never be, debatable. Only the belief in using those availabilities.
    I think that's a valid point. Thank you for your two cents.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  10. #380
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    But who gets to define what life is? By permitting abortions, we have decided that it is not life, or at least not viable life. By outlawing them you are deciding it is and therefore constitutes murder. Do we just poll everyone? No. It comes down to someone arbitrarily deciding. That doesn't make it any more right than someone arbitrarily deciding whose life (which is not viable without support) matters most. (Terrie Shivo's husband didn't believe she was actually "living", while her parents did. It was ultimately decided by a judge, according to that judges information and personal beliefs.) In some cultures, handicapped people and the extremely sick or elderly didn't have lives that were considered worthy of supporting. I'm just saying that the reasoning of permitting one and outlawing another doesn't make any sense. It's not as easy as saying you don't want to impose your beliefs on others. No matter what happens, someone's beliefs will be imposed on the rest of the population and those beliefs do have societal consequences.
    I don't see how this conflicts with my POV. The Terry Shivo case is an analogy that makes a lot of sense to me--again, I would simply say that these are grey areas where no one can define life with legitimate authority (not the legal kind, the expertise kind).

    I think it is as easy as saying I don't want to impose my beliefs on others--it's murky, grey area all around, defining what is or isn't human. I have beliefs on these things but I cannot put my finger on evidence and say xyz means this person is the definition of a human, just like no one else can. Whereas with your other analogies I can say "hey this person is a human and you cannot do that to a human."
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