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  1. #351
    Sniffles
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    I did glance through Jennifer's argument sweety.

  2. #352
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    That until the point that the baby can survive outside of the womb it's still a part of the mother, otherwise these fetuses would need to be taken away by child services.

    Unless child services do this already and I'm not aware.
    That's a valid argument.

    (Though I suspect it won't be long before they can grow babies completely in labs. They are already partway figuring out how to grow organs.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  3. #353
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    That's a valid argument.

    (Though I suspect it won't be long before they can grow babies completely in labs. They are already partway figuring out how to grow organs.)
    Well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, you know, wondering whether vegetarians would start eating meat again if the meat was grown as just the tissue and you didn't have to kill an animal to eat it.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #354
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    When you think about it, if a man really wanted to, couldnt he sue the woman who's getting an abortion? If he put a part of himself in her and its forming a baby and she decides to abort it...cant a man sue her? Thats a part of him that she's aborting. It's his just as it is hers. So does that mean she gets the full choice of the destination of such a fetus just because its IN her body?
    Yes I realise some men dont actually care, but what if a man DID care? I'm just trying to switch this to another point of view because the genes in that child share the fathers just as they do the mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  5. #355
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    The definition of life does matter though. It's of the highest importance. Everyone agrees you're ending a life in honour killings; with abortion it's split down the middle and many believe that there's nothing human at all about a fetus. It's not the same thing.
    But who gets to define what life is? By permitting abortions, we have decided that it is not life, or at least not viable life. By outlawing them you are deciding it is and therefore constitutes murder. Do we just poll everyone? No. It comes down to someone arbitrarily deciding. That doesn't make it any more right than someone arbitrarily deciding whose life (which is not viable without support) matters most. (Terrie Shivo's husband didn't believe she was actually "living", while her parents did. It was ultimately decided by a judge, according to that judges information and personal beliefs.) In some cultures, handicapped people and the extremely sick or elderly didn't have lives that were considered worthy of supporting. I'm just saying that the reasoning of permitting one and outlawing another doesn't make any sense. It's not as easy as saying you don't want to impose your beliefs on others. No matter what happens, someone's beliefs will be imposed on the rest of the population and those beliefs do have societal consequences.

  6. #356
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    When you think about it, if a man really wanted to, couldnt he sue the woman who's getting an abortion? If he put a part of himself in her and its forming a baby and she decides to abort it...cant a man sue her? Thats a part of him that she's aborting. It's his just as it is hers. So does that mean she gets the full choice of the destination of such a fetus just because its IN her body?
    Yes I realise some men dont actually care, but what if a man DID care? I'm just trying to switch this to another point of view because the genes in that child share the fathers just as they do the mother.
    Part of the problem is that when a man has sex, he will only ever experience the act as just sex. When a woman has sex, she has the burden of being infected by a potentially lethal parasite for nine months. It's kind of like saying if I gave you tape worm and tried to sue you for removing it. It sounds a little preposterous. Of course we're talking about a fetus, so there is a BIG difference between that and a tapeworm. Also, in your example, then women would have to fight the court about cases of rape. (The morning after pill is a bullshit argument, imo.)

    Also to the thread in general: Compare a fetus to an egg. If you went to a chicken coop and grabbed 3 eggs and dropped two, would you feel worse for breaking a shell and seeing a red dot, or would you feel worse seeing an almost full baby chicken?
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  7. #357
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    When you think about it, if a man really wanted to, couldnt he sue the woman who's getting an abortion? If he put a part of himself in her and its forming a baby and she decides to abort it...cant a man sue her? Thats a part of him that she's aborting. It's his just as it is hers. So does that mean she gets the full choice of the destination of such a fetus just because its IN her body?
    Yes I realise some men dont actually care, but what if a man DID care? I'm just trying to switch this to another point of view because the genes in that child share the fathers just as they do the mother.
    Legally speaking, men have no rights.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Humans, above all else, value human life (if not others' lives, at least their own human life).
    It depends on what system of ethics you accept. Whether it's religious, metaphysical or economical is a matter of personal choice. This point is not debatable.

    The only basis for debate is logical consistency within the system.

    The point, btw, is that your analogy is inherently flawed--the point was that you had no ground to stand on with your argument, which is important to note.
    Incorrect. My argument is sound.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    The value of human life is infinite and intrinsic. Valuable, regardless of its usefulness, and ends in themselves.
    Prove it.

    And even if you don't buy that, it doesn''t follow that it should be legislated as choice. If you buy choice, then you're saying it could be right, it could be wrong.
    Then why don't we just legislate my values on everyone? I'd go for that.

  10. #360
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    if the father wants the baby and can take care of it alone he should be allowed to imo.
    In theory I very much agree with this. I almost with there was a compensation alternative. If dad pays medical expenses, frees mom of all obligations, and then reimburses her for lost wages and a surrogate fee, the baby is his.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    No, Peguy..the idea of having to change my life drastically for 9 months, and then having to go through the pain and agony of child birth after the months of discomfort, already scared me shitless. Like I said, I would've done that (I think), I would've gone for adoption, but..I still am very very very happy I was able to avoid it all together. And then I'm not even touching upon the emotional pain of having to give up your baby for adoption even though you know you cannot care for her and the wondering I imagine you do over the years of what has become of that child you carried inside of you for 9 months.
    In practice there is a very real argument concerning the burden placed upon the woman in this situation. Carrying a baby takes a significant toll on you. It ages you, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. The last three months can be very draining and reduce your productivity substantially in the workplace or at school. My sister choose to have an abortion as her first pregnancy had her spend the last two months in bed. Being a single mom, working to support your family with no health insurance, she could not afford to take that risk of being without income.

    Also-think about the social judgements. You are giant and pregnant at work for nine months, then come back without a baby. If I was a teen mom, I might get applause for giving the baby up. Making the money I do, the majority of my coworkers would assume I was a selfish non-motherly bitch if I gave up my baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Part of the problem is that when a man has sex, he will only ever experience the act as just sex. When a woman has sex, she has the burden of being infected by a potentially lethal parasite for nine months. It's kind of like saying if I gave you tape worm and tried to sue you for removing it. It sounds a little preposterous. Of course we're talking about a fetus, so there is a BIG difference between that and a tapeworm. Also, in your example, then women would have to fight the court about cases of rape. (The morning after pill is a bullshit argument, imo.)

    Also to the thread in general: Compare a fetus to an egg. If you went to a chicken coop and grabbed 3 eggs and dropped two, would you feel worse for breaking a shell and seeing a red dot, or would you feel worse seeing an almost full baby chicken?
    No matter how careful you are, babies happen. I took the Morning after pill once-ewww.... not fun. Many years later my toddler was an IUD baby. At 99.9% he was slightly unlikely. (I think he was a determined INTJ sperm). I considered not having the baby as my husband and I were broken up with no plans to reunite. For me-I could not make that choice. Perhaps already having carried a baby swayed my choice.

    I did this chicken egg thing once. I dropped an egg that was about 16 days along. I looked it up later. The chickens belly was very bloated from the yolk-they absorb it slowly for nutrition. Its eyes bulged as they were very large in relation to its head. It lay there gasping for breath-it's lungs were not developed enough to breath. It just spasmed. I put it in a trash bag and hit it with a shovel several times.

    Babies in the womb develop the capacity to feel pain at about 12-14 weeks. If we choose to allow termination of pregnancy at that stage onwards we should give the baby pain medication at the least-Vets do it when they spay pregnant dogs or cats. Conscious or not it is wrong to inflict pain on another creature if we can find an alternative.

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