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  1. #341
    Sniffles
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    Now this is a rather interesting take on the connection between abortion and womens' rights:
    "Her Choice, Her Problem: How Abortion Empowers Men":

    "Throughout human history, children have been the consequence of natural sexual relations between men and women. Both sexes knew they were equally responsible for their children, and society had somehow to facilitate their upbringing. Even the advent of birth control did not fundamentally change this dynamic, for all forms of contraception are fallible.

    Elective abortion changes everything. Abortion absolutely prevents the birth of a child. A womans choice for or against abortion breaks the causal link between conception and birth. It matters little what or who caused conception or whether the male insisted on having unprotected intercourse. It is she alone who finally decides whether the child comes into the world. She is the responsible one. For the first time in history, the father and the doctor and the health-insurance actuary can point a finger at her as the person who allowed an inconvenient human being to come into the world.

    The deepest tragedy may be that there is no way out. By granting to the pregnant woman an unrestrained choice over who will be born, we make her alone to blame for how she exercises her power. Nothing can alter the solidarity-shattering impact of the abortion option."

  2. #342
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    What I'm saying is that yes many miscarriages are the problem of the chromosomes that make up the fetus but sometimes women have various conditions or diseases that makes them especially prone to miscarriages.

    These women who are at high-risk for miscarriages should not be allowed to have babies because they are needlessly exposing a LIVING BEING, their CHILD, to an inordinate amount of risk. They are POISONING IT by allowing it to live in their body.

    By extension, because ANY sex can lead to pregnancy, regardless of use of contraceptives, these women should NOT be allowed to engage in sex AT ALL because they MAY be putting their BABIES at RISK.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #343
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Having the choice will at least make you not feel helpless, I think....No doubt that women can deal with it without having an abortion but..I dunno, having the choice is somethign I consider very important. It takes away that feeling of helplessness. It makes you feel like you do have control over your own life, even if the choices you face are not exactly great, on the contrary.
    But the choice involved here concerns the life of another person. Not only that in order to get to the stage where the choice between an abortion or not you have already made more than a few choices already. Control over your own life, ok I sympathize with that - but I will stress that striving towards self-control is the best way to achieve that.

  4. #344
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What about those who have no compuctions about murder? For example, honour killings are acknowledged as murder in some cultures and yet are encouraged. I don't think the definition matters so much as the act itself. Since we have no objective, universally recognized guidelines by which to judge that act, it leaves us in the position of the most powerful making a judgement call or else agreeing that everyone should do what they feel is right in the least harmful way.
    The definition of life does matter though. It's of the highest importance. Everyone agrees you're ending a life in honour killings; with abortion it's split down the middle and many believe that there's nothing human at all about a fetus. It's not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    What I'm saying is that yes many miscarriages are the problem of the chromosomes that make up the fetus but sometimes women have various conditions or diseases that makes them especially prone to miscarriages.

    These women who are at high-risk for miscarriages should not be allowed to have babies because they are needlessly exposing a LIVING BEING, their CHILD, to an inordinate amount of risk. They are POISONING IT by allowing it to live in their body.

    By extension, because ANY sex can lead to pregnancy, regardless of use of contraceptives, these women should NOT be allowed to engage in sex AT ALL because they MAY be putting their BABIES at RISK.
    ^What was this in response to? Without the context I'm missing some of what you're trying to say here.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  5. #345
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Peguy: Sex is a part of life..one that doesn't allow itself to be restrained often, so it's unrealistic to expect people to not get into this predicament. And even with responsible use of contraceptives, accidents will happen. And then there's rape. There's no way to avoid this situation. So, as horrible as it is, this choice has to exist, imo.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  6. #346
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    ^What was this in response to? Without the context I'm missing some of what you're trying to say here.
    I was wondering if stillborn babies and miscarriages are the mother's fault if they're not the fault of chromosomal errors, and if she therefore killed a child.

    I think the answers of some people here would be 'yes'.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #347
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I was wondering if stillborn babies and miscarriages are the mother's fault if they're not the fault of chromosomal errors, and if she therefore killed a child.

    I think the answers of some people here would be 'yes'.
    Nobody's going to answer yes to that. The best you'll get is finding that this illuminates a fallacious line of reasoning. What line of reasoning were you trying to draw out?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #348
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Peguy: Sex is a part of life..one that doesn't allow itself to be restrained often, so it's unrealistic to expect people to not get into this predicament. And even with responsible use of contraceptives, accidents will happen. And then there's rape. There's no way to avoid this situation. So, as horrible as it is, this choice has to exist, imo.
    I never denied sex is a part of life, and that people are going to be people(myself included). However, that doesn't refute what I said. People still have the ability to control themselves to a reasonable extent, unless they suffer from a severe psychological condition.

    That's the whole point behind having choices and controlling your life, you accept the fact you can control yourself to such an extent and take responsibilities for those choices you make - otherwise you're not fit to be in that situation.

    I should also mention that in order to truely appreciate the fact one has the freedom to make choices and control their lives involves a certain appreciation for life as an end in itself. That means concluding that existence is better than non-existence. It doesn't take long to figure out where this leads in terms of discussing abortion.

  9. #349
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Nobody's going to answer yes to that. The best you'll get is finding that this illuminates a fallacious line of reasoning. What line of reasoning were you trying to draw out?
    That until the point that the baby can survive outside of the womb it's still a part of the mother, otherwise these fetuses would need to be taken away by child services.

    Unless child services do this already and I'm not aware.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #350
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Peguy, see Jennifers argument to Risen for that. I'm out
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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