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  1. #331
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    You still have to take responsibility for your actions, regardless. Your actions have effects, whether somebody punishes you or LIFE punishes you. there is no escape just because somebody wants to play victim. In most cases, both the man and the woman who messed up and created a child are responsible, and accountable for what they choose to do from then on. It applies to every other aspect of decision making in life, and it applies to this subject as well. Life is not fair. The world is not just. We make choices, we must live with the results of those choices. Things happen to us that really are out of our control, then we make CHOICES on how to respond, choices that are in our control. That is my point. The situation ends up different for everyone in regards to abortion, but nobody has grounds to suggest somebody is completely and wholly excused from how they choose to react to whatever situation may have given rise to the child being created. When you have the power to use your brain and make a choice in life, that is YOURS to own, and nobody elses. You are responsible for the choice you made and all the choices you didn't make.
    Well, I think that part, I addressed very specifically earlier: I don't think I ever have thought or suggested that someone could be wholly excused from the responsibility for their decisions.

    It's also ironic because 10-15 years ago, I think I was writing posts that aren't a lot different than what you're saying here. If one thing was beaten into me by my childhood, it was an excruciating T-rigor of responsibility. I was pretty merciless in how I judged others and ever far worse in how I judged myself, and there were no excuses for any choice that was below the rational ideal. I was pretty relentless in my beliefs this way, and it really affected the quality of my life and relationships for many years. I had the same opinion on the abortion topic as what you describe in your posts.

    One of the things that changed is that, earlier in life, I thought I had all the answers and the "right way" to view the situation. Later, I realized many of my conclusions were drawn based on my own values, of which I did not have actual hard evidence, and while it's necessary in life to fight for what I believed to be true, I also had to be fair and respectful of people who had different values if I perceived they were attempting to the best of their ability to be true, virtuous, and responsible for their decisions. (I don't know how better to qualify that statement right now.)

    I don't think you still yet see the inflexibility within your perspective... the sense that you have the only handle on truth here and so you can judge others as harshly about what is responsible and what is not as you'd judge yourself if you were in this position and chose to abort.

    I totally believe you when you say in a later post that you wouldn't abort, although obviously you will never be in that situation yourself, directly. Your commitment to this particular position is very evident to me. And it's very admirable to me that you would do that. You're certainly not a hypocrite.

    The point, though, is that it is not your responsibility to decide for other people what their responsibility should be. You can decide what your responsibility should be, and you can have a strong opinion about what their responsibility should be, but taking responsibility for other people by controlling their behavior or treating them as deficient/irresponsible in your mind if they choose another path for whatever reason seems like a lack of humility to me (just like I judge myself for that period of my life when I held similar views, I lacked humility in some crucial ways) and diminishes/undermines potential dialog and growth for everyone. The rigor of the position you're expecting others to adhere to is not realistic for many, it's only realistic for you and those like you, and so you're going to have to find a different way to approach it if you want to help people embrace the solution(s) you value.


    But don't mind me, I'm just a right wing nut.
    Gee. Do not put yourself down like that.

    I actually found your last number of posts here extremely brave and insightful, and I think you've added a lot to the conversation. Even if I disagree with some of your premises, I've seen very few posts that were worded so well, strongly, and coherently; and if they weren't, I wouldn't waste my time responding to them. You've definitely helped boost this conversation to the Next Level, whatever that is.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I never said it was the right solution in any circumstance. But context is everything, sweety. For the record, I'll repeat that I would like to think I'd keep the baby if it were to happen to me. In fact, considering my age, I'd say I'm fairly sure. However, I cannot tell you how many times I woke up when I was younger, at 3 am, scared shitless, not remembering if I took my pill or not. I *knew* I wasn't ready, hell I still aint, but at least I'm closer. It only takes a little bit of bad luck and a moment of forgetfulness. And the idea of someone being able to tell me what to do with my body and being able to force me to do 'the right thing' (or their version of it), scares the living daylights out of me. Forcing someone to do something that they're not ready for either, isn't exactly the right thing to do either. So how do you decide what to do wrongly? And more importantly...who gets to decide?
    But this assumes that you're somehow forced to raise the child if you deem yourself unworthy of the task at hand. That's not necessarily so, as has been pointed out in regards to adoption or other social networks that will willingly care for the child in your place. There are also charities and networks that will be more than willing to help you care for the child if you choose to keep it but still unsure about how fit you are as a mother. It's not necessarily so that you're sent out in the cold with a baby on your hands.

  3. #333
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Jennifer, I'm going to let you take it from here, you're far better at wording this stuff than I am
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  4. #334
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    But this assumes that you're somehow forced to raised the child if you deem yourself unworthy of the task at hand. That's not necessarily so, as has been pointed out in regards to adoption or other social networks that will willingly care for the child in your place. There are also charities and networks that will be more than willing to help you care for the child if you choose to keep it but still unsure about how fit you are as a mother. It's not necessarily so that you're sent out in the cold with a baby on your hands.
    No, Peguy..the idea of having to change my life drastically for 9 months, and then having to go through the pain and agony of child birth after the months of discomfort, already scared me shitless. Like I said, I would've done that (I think), I would've gone for adoption, but..I still am very very very happy I was able to avoid it all together. And then I'm not even touching upon the emotional pain of having to give up your baby for adoption even though you know you cannot care for her and the wondering I imagine you do over the years of what has become of that child you carried inside of you for 9 months.
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  5. #335
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    I don't really understand this and all the terminology.
    Jennifer's post gives some excellent detail:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ....
    I think a nice an easy way to convey the concept:
    --Master Morality: "might makes right" (think Roman morality)
    --Slave Morality: "curb your wants {for the sake of everyone else}, even if you have the power to exercise your wants" (think Christian-Aristotelian/Platonist Morality)

    The main point is that epistemologically, neither one is "correct". Societies simply agree to treat one or the other as objective. The degree to which one can exercise either way, is also "agreed upon" in society, with no real "metaphysically prescriptive" right or wrong. The greatest philosophers have largely failed in creating ethical systems that are prescriptively absolutely necessary FOR EVERYONE. There are plenty of systems which can be metaphysically correct, "for you". This is why I am not really a nihilist. I definitely have metaphysical beliefs that are "true for me". Im not relativist about it, I actually believe them to be absolutely necessary and universal "for me". I do not however believe that I can prove all of my beliefs to be prescriptively "true for everyone".

    Now for some examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Do you see 93% of woman are getting abortions for social reasons!! Not rape, not health issues-SOCIAL ISSUES! This is kind of frightning to me. We're aborting because its inconvenient for us, or because we just dont want the child? I'm gonna be blunt and say that that sounds really selfish.
    This is a good example of slave morality: you are expected to curb your wants {for everyone else}, even if you have the power to exercise your wants. People who have the power to get an abortion, and the mindset to not mind getting an abortion, are subjected to what the collective majority thinks is "objectively right". Even though those pro-choice people dont really affect the pro-lifers, the pro-lifers think they need to "restrain" those people who exercise their wants.

    EDIT: some might take my commentary here to mean that I would endorse murder. Murder being wrong is something that is metaphysically and prescriptively "true for me". I actually haven't thought about trying to formulate it for being "true for everyone".

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    {Theology and the State are intimately and historically connected}
    Now the connection between theological and political concepts is not in question; what has been hotly contested is the exact nature of that connection.
    He gets it. When a society can come together and agree on how it will exercise slave morality (I respectfully say that peguy would probably say 'religion'), thats usually when everyone can agree that something is "objectively right".

    As a side note: this explains why someone like Risen, who isnt really even religious, wants the religious ideas to stay. He recognizes that his current conservative world view, only holds "objective" weight, if "everyone" in society holds the same "metaphysically prescriptive" morals of Christianity to be true for themselves. Thus as a collection of individual beliefs that are "true for you", there then can be a prescriptive "true for everyone", within that society.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    No, Peguy..the idea of having to change my life drastically for 9 months, and then having to go through the pain and agony of child birth after the months of discomfort, already scared me shitless. Like I said, I would've done that (I think), I would've gone for adoption, but..I still am very very very happy I was able to avoid it all together. And then I'm not even touching upon the emotional pain of having to give up your baby for adoption even though you know you cannot care for her and the wondering I imagine you do over the years of what has become of that child you carried inside of you for 9 months.
    Yes, I can understand much of the emotional pain aspect of the argument here on the part of women, as much as a man possibly can. And I'm not trying to appear heartless or indifferent towards that; indeed it has to be taken account of in any argument of the issue(pro or con).

    However, I can't help but stress that it doesn't really prove one way or the other. I mean I've heard all sorts of accounts from women who through the same kind of emotional agony yet still did not have an abortion. And furthermore, will abortion even solve any of the issues you described?

  7. #337
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    Well I guess my position can be best summed up by Nietzsche:

    "Any truth which threatens life is no truth at all. It is an error."

  8. #338
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Abortion is a very sad thing... Forcing someone else to die for your own selfishness of wanting an easier life. Someone sees a baby who was just born in front of them. The baby does not yet feel much pain. The baby cannot think. Killing it would almost be the same as an abortion.

    I wonder how many times someone who would have been this in less than half a year had died.

  9. #339
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes, I can understand much of the emotional pain aspect of the argument here on the part of women, as much as a man possibly can. And I'm not trying to appear heartless or indifferent towards that; indeed it has to be taken account of in any argument of the issue(pro or con).

    However, I can't help but stress that it doesn't really prove one way or the other. I mean I've heard all sorts of accounts from women who through the same kind of emotional agony yet still did not have an abortion. And furthermore, will abortion even solve any of the issues you described?
    Having the choice will at least make you not feel helpless, I think. Also depends on how early it's been done. And what you consider abortion. I've taken the morning after pill, after realizing I'd forgotten my own pill. I always have them in the house, just in case. It made me sick for for a day, and I dunno if I was pregnant..but I did not hesitate to take them. Lot of variables...I would not consider abortion lightly either, it is not exactly the most pleasant procedure and your body does get a shock. But I can imagine it can save you several months of being confronted with it, giving you a chance to move on with your life faster again, I guess. No doubt that women can deal with it without having an abortion but..I dunno, having the choice is somethign I consider very important. It takes away that feeling of helplessness. It makes you feel like you do have control over your own life, even if the choices you face are not exactly great, on the contrary.
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  10. #340
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Abortion is a very sad thing... Forcing someone else to die for your own selfishness of wanting an easier life. Someone sees a baby who was just born in front of them. The baby does not yet feel much pain. The baby cannot think. Killing it would almost be the same as an abortion.

    I wonder how many times someone who would have been this in less than half a year had died.

    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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