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  1. #321
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Yes, but there's downsides to every situation. The woman takes more social stigma and suffers all the normal physical stress of pregnancy. The father, however, can't carry his baby in his body, and is at the mercy of the mom's decision.

    It seems to me that women actually have the advantage here if you step back another level: the fate of the baby is in their hands. This is a final, bottom line decision--their opinion is the one that counts.

    Whereas with men, they suffer potentially no social stigma, no financial burden, no physical burden, no whatever, but I think we can all agree intense psychological pain is the most difficult to bear, and if the dad wants his kid, it's out of his control and totally in control of the mom.
    Agreed. Completely agreed. But that's only as long as that right remains with women and isn't taken away from them. It's a sucky situation either way you look at it.
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  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But you will never run that risk yourself. Nor do you make sure you don't put anyone else at risk (aka abstaining). It makes it easier to step back and go 'this is what the right thing to do is' as you subconsciously know you'll never have to worry about all the dilemma's that right choice brings forth. Nor will you ever have to deal with the practical problems it will cause. The emotional trauma that follows.

    I'm not saying you're wrong. But you could stand to take into account that you are in fact in a very safe position when it comes to this issue. And therefore, it's easy for you to say what should be done.
    Oh come on Amar, you know me. I know I've told you why I've made some of the decisions I have in my sex life. I do limit my partners, even when there's a high demand. I will never have to worry about the choices and dilemmas because I make conscious choices not to put myself into compromising situations, which is a part of making good decisions. So long as I have had or do have sex with people I'm not married to, or know that they wouldn't abort should they get pregnant, I can't claim that all of my sexual experiences were "safe" ones. I am, however, an INTP and part of my natural thought process is in considering all possibilities around my actions, and I already know how I'd act/react if such a situation occurred. The problem is I have no control over what my partner would do, and that's why being selective with your partners is important.

    But again, nobody can be perfect, we can only GENERALLY act in accordance with our values and make smart decisions that don't put us in tough positions. When we do get into that place, for whatever reason, what we ultimately choose puts our integrity to the test. I honestly can't relate to the thinking that says just because you're smart enough to avoid compromising situations, you can neither make judgments about how to act in order to stay out of those situations nor can you judge what should be done when you do get into that position, because you will never be there. That's not productive in any sense.

  3. #323
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Usehername - It seems to me that all of the legal system imposes laws on others that they may not agree with. This is the difficult thing about a country without a common worldview that is used as the premise for lawmaking. There are no good answers. It boils down to those who are most powerful making the decision. The majority of people voting for a decision certainly doesn't ensure a good decision, as is evidenced by many civilizations who willingly elected despicable leaders or who participated in horrific practices.

    The argument that women will have illegal abortions anyway and more will die in the process is as logical as saying that murderers should be supplied with guns that don't backfire. That way they won't hurt/kill themselves in the process because they are going to murder whether it's legal or not. (I'm not saying it's the same argument, but it's about as logical).

    I realize that there are many considerations within this argument, but in a country where we are not suffering for available birth control and information (even for teenagers) and where the majority of abortions performed are done so without proper information being provided to the recipient, and for reasons of convenience, the back alley coat hanger abortion argument doesn't seem very valid to me. This has more to do with taking responsibility for decisions that people old enough to reproduce make.

  4. #324
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No not really. Fascism is a particular kind of political thinking. With any set of laws you're going to end up imposing a standard that some are going to disagree with. Unless you're advocating something like Panarchism here.
    Point taken about my hyperbole with the term; I still think the ideas it connotes is right--there's no reason for us all to start with the same premises; people are going to have abortions; that's reality.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But you will never run that risk yourself. Nor do you make sure you don't put anyone else at risk (aka abstaining). It makes it easier to step back and go 'this is what the right thing to do is' as you subconsciously know you'll never have to worry about all the dilemma's that right choice brings forth. Nor will you ever have to deal with the practical problems it will cause. The emotional trauma that follows.

    I'm not saying you're wrong. But you could stand to take into account that you are in fact (in comparison) in a very safe position when it comes to this issue. And therefore, it's easy for you to say what should be done.
    I may not know up close and personal, but that doesn't necessarily detract from my arguments on the matter - not least of which because there are women who agree with my basic positions here.

    Sure you can bring up all the emotional issues women go through, but that doesn't necessarily mean abortion is the right solution to those issues. Even from a pro-choice position that should only be the last resort when all other options have been reasonably exhausted.

    So even then there should be an emphasis on preserving the life of the child at all costs when possible, even if abortion is legal. Also it should be restricted as much as reasonably possible, if the assumption is that abortion is to be legal.

    For example, I find the laws of Poland to be rather reasonable in regards to legalizing abortion - in that it's restricted to a few specific kinds of circumstances. Malta is the only country I know of that restricts abortion under any circumstances, that and Ireland I believe.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    people are going to have abortions; that's reality.
    That can be said about anything really.

  7. #327
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    The argument that women will have illegal abortions anyway and more will die in the process is as logical as saying that murderers should be supplied with guns that don't backfire. That way they won't hurt/kill themselves in the process because they are going to murder whether it's legal or not. (I'm not saying it's the same argument, but it's about as logical).
    No it's not though--we all agree on the definition of murder. We don't all agree on The Definition of Human Life. We're never going to all agree on the definition of human life. Hence, it's not murder in some people's eyes, hence people are going to want abortions.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  8. #328
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    What about those who have no compuctions about murder? For example, honour killings are acknowledged as murder in some cultures and yet are encouraged. I don't think the definition matters so much as the act itself. Since we have no objective, universally recognized guidelines by which to judge that act, it leaves us in the position of the most powerful making a judgement call or else agreeing that everyone should do what they feel is right in the least harmful way.

  9. #329
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Whereas with men, they suffer potentially no social stigma, no financial burden, no physical burden, no whatever, but I think we can all agree intense psychological pain is the most difficult to bear, and if the dad wants his kid, it's out of his control and totally in control of the mom. Have you read about dads or seen on postsecret all the stuff about the fathers who wanted their babies? They do exist out there.
    I have seen this with my brother. He was engaged to a woman that he loved a couple of years ago, and she got pregnant. He was so thrilled and wanted the baby, and had every indication from her that they would be having it. Well, unbeknownst to him, she went and had an abortion one day. It turns out that she didn't want the baby because she wasn't ready for the responsibility, and was too afraid and unwilling to discuss it with him because she had her mind made up. My brother was absolutely shocked and torn apart. He cried to us. He felt like she killed his baby (his words), and the emotional tormoil of that made him question everything about her.

  10. #330
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Oh come on Amar, you know me. I know I've told you why I've made some of the decisions I have in my sex life. I do limit my partners, even when there's a high demand. I will never have to worry about the choices and dilemmas because I make conscious choices not to put myself into compromising situations, which is a part of making good decisions. So long as I have had or do have sex with people I'm not married to, or know that they wouldn't abort should they get pregnant, I can't claim that all of my sexual experiences were "safe" ones. I am, however, an INTP and part of my natural thought process is in considering all possibilities around my actions, and I already know how I'd act/react if such a situation occurred. The problem is I have no control over what my partner would do, and that's why being selective with your partners is important.

    But again, nobody can be perfect, we can only GENERALLY act in accordance with our values and make smart decisions that don't put us in tough positions. When we do get into that place, for whatever reason, what we ultimately choose puts our integrity to the test. I honestly can't relate to the thinking that says just because you're smart enough to avoid compromising situations, you can neither make judgments about how to act in order to stay out of those situations nor can you judge what should be done when you do get into that position, because you will never be there. That's not productive in any sense.

    Oh I do know you hon, and I never said you were irresponsible or what not. But it is true that no contraceptive is ever fully effective and you have no way of knowing how the girl you slept with will really respond, if the situation were to occur. People give odd reactions when push comes to shove and do things they'd never think they'd do. That might not be productive to think that way..but it is true

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I may not know up close and personal, but that doesn't necessarily detract from my arguments on the matter - not least of which because there are women who agree with my basic positions here.

    Sure you can bring up all the emotional issues women go through, but that doesn't necessarily mean abortion is the right solution to those issues. Even from a pro-choice position that should only be the last resort when all other options have been reasonably exhausted.

    So even then there should be an emphasis on preserving the life of the child at all costs when possible, even if abortion is legal. Also it should be restricted as much as reasonably possible, if the assumption is that abortion is to be legal.

    For example, I find the laws of Poland to be rather reasonable in regards to legalizing abortion - in that it's restricted to a few specific kinds of circumstances. Malta is the only country I know of that restricts abortion under any circumstances, that and Ireland I believe.
    I never said it was the right solution in any circumstance. But context is everything, sweety. For the record, I'll repeat that I would like to think I'd keep the baby if it were to happen to me. In fact, considering my age, I'd say I'm fairly sure. However, I cannot tell you how many times I woke up when I was younger, at 3 am, scared shitless, not remembering if I took my pill or not. I *knew* I wasn't ready, hell I still aint, but at least I'm closer. It only takes a little bit of bad luck and a moment of forgetfulness. And the idea of someone being able to tell me what to do with my body and being able to force me to do 'the right thing' (or their version of it), scares the living daylights out of me. Forcing someone to do something that they're not ready for either, isn't exactly the right thing to do either. So how do you decide what to do wrongly? And more importantly...who gets to decide?
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