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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    .But otherwise, I'd say their conscience will make sure they realize the consequences.
    The reality is that many people in that situation are not mature, lack critical thinking, and in stories I've heard, don't realize the full impact of what they did until after the fact when it's too late. That's why society needs firm messages about such subjects, because many people lack the ability to completely consider what their actions will bring, ESPECIALLY teenagers. People's conscience is weak when society never encourages that people actually use it, and then we all somehow expect that people will magically find it and fish it out of the gutter. A conscience, morality, values, principles... all those things must be cultivated, they are not ingrained into human beings.

    This is why I say leave people to make their own choices, but I know most people suck at making good choices, particularly in such stressful situations. "Good" doesn't even have to be defined by my, or a broad, standard, I mean good just in what THEY would consider to be good/desirable in their lives and hearts. Many people are poor at making good decisions just for themselves. Then we all live with whatever the consequences are for the individual, and the collection of individuals and the ripple effects of their decisions.

  2. #302
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Giggly posted this up:
    Abortion Statistics

    I think it interesting just to see. I'm just going to point certain things out from it. Take it as you want.

    Who's having abortions (age)?
    52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.
    Who's having abortions (marital status)?
    64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%
    Why women have abortions
    1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).
    I have to make say say out of the last quote I put up. Do you see 93% of woman are getting abortions for social reasons!! Not rape, not health issues-SOCIAL ISSUES! This is kind of frightning to me. We're aborting because its inconvenient for us, or because we just dont want the child? I'm gonna be blunt and say that that sounds really selfish. It seems that we the people, are trying to make reasons why its OK to go with this. Please, if you can tell me the reasoning for abortion in the most unselfish way then I'll leave it alone. But please don't use the rape and health line, because it seems thats not the reason most woman are getting abortions.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  3. #303
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    You still have to take responsibility for your actions, regardless. Your actions have effects, whether somebody punishes you or LIFE punishes you. there is no escape just because somebody wants to play victim. In most cases, both the man and the woman who messed up and created a child are responsible, and accountable for what they choose to do from then on. It applies to every other aspect of decision making in life, and it applies to this subject as well. Life is not fair. The world is not just. We make choices, we must live with the results of those choices. Things happen to us that really are out of our control, then we make CHOICES on how to respond, choices that are in our control. That is my point. The situation ends up different for everyone in regards to abortion, but nobody has grounds to suggest somebody is completely and wholly excused from how they choose to react to whatever situation may have given rise to the child being created. When you have the power to use your brain and make a choice in life, that is YOURS to own, and nobody elses. You are responsible for the choice you made and all the choices you didn't make.
    Sure, but abortion is a perfectly valid choice given many people's worldviews. Pro-life people have no argument against that if they start with the same premises as pro-choice people do.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #304
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    I have to make say say out of the last quote I put up. Do you see 93% of woman are getting abortions for social reasons!! Not rape, not health issues-SOCIAL ISSUES! This is kind of frightning to me. We're aborting because its inconvenient for us, or because we just dont want the child? I'm gonna be blunt and say that that sounds really selfish. It seems that we the people, are trying to make reasons why its OK to go with this. Please, if you can tell me the reasoning for abortion in the most unselfish way then I'll leave it alone. But please don't use the rape and health line, because it seems thats not the reason most woman are getting abortions.
    The answer to this, IMO, is not to ban abortion (especially considering almost exactly as many women seek abortion whether it's legal or not, the only difference is how many of them die in the process). It's to make birth control widely available and not stigmatized, be honest with our youth about sexuality, improve social support networks that affect whether people decide they can carry a pregnancy to term or not, and so on.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Sure, but abortion is a perfectly valid choice given many people's worldviews. Pro-life people have no argument against that if they start with the same premises as pro-choice people do.
    Right. There are two competing sets of morality here, in our day and age. So many choices for people, but what to choose? Whatever message of morality is propagates most in society will decide that, by and large.

  6. #306
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Risen, hon, you know I love you, but unless you keep it in your pants at all times or grow a uterus, your opinion really isn't valid on this subject as you'd be a hypocrite.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #307
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Sure, but abortion is a perfectly valid choice given many people's worldviews. Pro-life people have no argument against that if they start with the same premises as pro-choice people do.
    See, you have a point about that. Especially in our time, people believe there IS no right or wrong. Or that every person defines their own truth. There really isnt any way to change anyones point of view if this is how people see it. Things are so wish washy that nobody knows whats right or wrong.
    Especially since some of us see abortion as the killing of a completely innocent life and others see it as a free choice over their body. Neither is going to back down because both are very strong beliefs and it almost defines who you are and who you think.

    Honestly, I dont mind talking about these issues. The problem comes in when people start saying the others are stupid and idiotic for thinking what they do and that the other is so close minded. Really, if neither is willing to disown what they believe then aren't both sides 'close minded'?
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Risen, hon, you know I love you, but unless you keep it in your pants at all times or grow a uterus, your opinion really isn't valid on this subject as you'd be a hypocrite.
    Hypocrisy is not necessarily a bad thing actually. It takes considerable courage to claim something is wrong even though you yourself commit it, and honestly acknowledge that fact. The only way you can achieve perfect consistency in regards to virtues is to set the bar absurdly low.

  9. #309
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    See, you have a point about that. Especially in our time, people believe there IS no right or wrong. Or that every person defines their own truth. There really isnt any way to change anyones point of view if this is how people see it. Things are so wish washy that nobody knows whats right or wrong.
    This is painting it as far more of a bifurcating issue than it genuinely is. There's a lot of people who just make salient all of the shades of gray in the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Especially since some of us see abortion as the killing of a completely innocent life and others see it as a free choice over their body.
    I see abortion as both.

    The pragmatic facts are that people are going to get abortions either legally or illegally. If they do it legally the mother is less likely to die. You don't even need the slightest bit of pro-choice leanings to actually be pro-choice. You just need to be pragmatic to be pro-choice. I'm pro-life in terms of morals but there's no sense in imposing those morals on others who don't share my beliefs. That's called facism.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Risen, hon, you know I love you, but unless you keep it in your pants at all times or grow a uterus, your opinion really isn't valid on this subject as you'd be a hypocrite.
    I'd be a hypocrite if I said people should not have sex for fear of making a baby, which I never said. I'd be a hypocrite if I said that we should only have sex if we are prepared to possibly have to take care of a child if a remote accident should happen, but I have not said that because it is too idealistic. But even if i did have sex, and had an accident, I wouldn't go and try to erase my accident.

    I may not be a woman, but I am a human being with a brain that has an ability to express empathy and simulate experiences. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't at least TRY to consider what it'd be like if I were a woman, and somebody stuck me with a dick, ejaculated inside me against my own will, and then I end up with this thing growing inside of me expanding my stomach and giving me all sorts of hormonal problems and fears, regrets, guilt, and anger over what happened past and present. But I do consider that, despite how unpleasant it is, and I do still come to the conclusion that I'd spare the child inside of me because it deserves a chance at life if it being born isn't going to kill me.

    "I'm a woman, you're not," doesn't grant a free pass from making judgments. I may not be able to judge with quite the same level of direct experience, but we all still have a need and the right to make judgments where we may.

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