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  1. #291
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You can just as well be panicking because there's a fire a couple of rooms down that isn't so big yet, but the smoke makes you abandon the other person anyways. Context is everything.
    But you're forgetting the fact that agency is placed solely on the people who got pregnant here. Your analogy sets up the situation as if an outside force acted upon them. Sex leads to babies, they had sex, they had agency, they were the ones who took action that led to the problem.
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  2. #292
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    Agreed... but who needs defending here? Why is the fetus/embryo/big-clump-o-human-cells being destroyed because of a decision that the mother made? You could say, a child exists because their mother gave birth to them, but I think we can all agree that would not give the mother the right to kill the child if it was an inconvenience.

    Even our judicial system makes distinctions in accountability, adults are tried differently than juveniles and children because they do not know better. Well, who is the one who ought to know better here? Which one is suffering a loss at the mistake of someone else, and which is shirking responsibility for their choices?
    I agree. This is not as complicated an issue as people want to make out to be. Here are some abortion statistics.

    Abortion Statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Agree completely. I've met girl after girl who've regreted the abortion. I've had 2 of my best friends get abortions and gah, it really hurt them afterwards. They regreted it so much. I've never met a woman who was glad she got an abortion. Am I saying they aren't out there? No...but I think if you really get down to it. Woman regret it alot of the time.
    Yep. I've seen this too often as well.

  3. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Rajah was talking about 21st century American supreme court decisions. So this historical reference is valuable on its own, but unrelated to her analogy's context.
    I know what Rajah was talking about; and I'm making the argument that such an analogy doesn't really fit in any case; plus it's unwise to make such an anology not least because of the dark history it has(and I'm not just talking Medieval stuff here).


    Those billion people hardly represent the number of believers who put their faith in the institution as defined by the institution. I know as friends/am related to several dozen Catholics (including my mother and family on her side) and only a handful of them take their faith seriously as defined by the Catholic church. Those billion people are not really a billion people who believe in the pope. We both know that's a weak argument.
    Well yes we could argue who's really Catholic or even Christian all day long; but nominally speaking Catholicism is the largest denomination.

    I understand it fine--I disagree with the entire notion of Catholicism in an era when people can read the Bible and learn on their own.
    Literacy is not an argument against Papal authority really.

    All of this is irrelevant to the value of that standpoint on its own, which is the bubble in which you find my flaws, but it is not a necessary premise for the purpose of the analogy you took exception to, so your exception has merit in isolation but fails to have merit in context of what you took exception to.
    I really don't see how that's so. In anycase, we're kinda derailing the discussion here. Perhaps a different thread is the best avenue for discussing these matters in full?

  4. #294
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    But you're forgetting the fact that agency is placed solely on the people who got pregnant here. Your analogy sets up the situation as if an outside force acted upon them. Sex leads to babies, they had sex, they had agency, they were the ones who took action that led to the problem.
    So you leave on the furnace or a haircurler, forget to turn on the oven, leave a candle or cigarette burning and are three rooms down when you smell the smoke and panick. Forgetfulness, something done in on a whim..most of us are guilty of this at some point in their lives..and multiple times I'd say.
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  5. #295
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    Alright, I'll concede that if you're just talking about the form of authority and structure of decisions, then you can make the analogy between the Supreme court and the Pope - but in a de facto sense really. Even then one has to be very careful how they frame it. There are still very significant differences between the two. Plus whether the analogy applies to issues like abortion is another question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So you leave on the furnace or a haircurler, forget to turn on the oven, leave a candle or cigarette burning and are three rooms down when you smell the smoke and panick. Forgetfulness, something done in on a whim..most of us are guilty of this at some point in their lives..and multiple times I'd say.
    It doesn't excuse people not to take responsibility for their actions. That's the key here, take some responsibility because you can't blame everything on someone else or the universe. People these days are all too quick to blame their wrong doings on something else, and then never end up changing their behavior or learning.

  7. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So you leave on the furnace or a haircurler, forget to turn on the oven, leave a candle or cigarette burning and are three rooms down when you smell the smoke and panick. Forgetfulness, something done in on a whim..most of us are guilty of this at some point in their lives..and multiple times I'd say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    It doesn't excuse people not to take responsibility for their actions. That's the key here, take some responsibility because you can't blame everything on someone else or the universe. People these days are all too quick to blame their wrong doings on something else, and then never end up changing their behavior or learning.
    I think actually all that is being said in a situation like this is that people are human... even when they're actually being responsible. They're still under a lot of various pressures and still prone to not thinking clearly and/or screwing up.

    The fact that some people are pretty irresponsible and need to start taking some responsibility for their choices isn't really the "prime situation" being discussed. I think generally people would agree that the extremes of (1) expecting people to be perfect vs (2) otherwise exonerating them of their actions are two poles to avoid.

    What happens with the basic human being, who wants to do right, who doesn't want to blow off their responsibilities, ends up in a situation like this at least partly by their own complicity and is having to process complex realities? (Whether it's a teenage girl who had sex with her bf partly because he pressured her but partly because she didn't want to lose him and/or wanted to rebel against her parents, OR another extreme, like the responsible mom who realizes she is pregnant with a baby with severe genetic issues that isn't expected to live a year or two past birth if not born dead and whose family does not have the resources to care for such a child?)

    There's been an increasing polarization happening in the discussion where one side treats the woman like a victim and the other side treats her cynically. it's not nearly as cut-and-dried as the pregnancy resulting from someone who was just utterly irresponsible and must now simply be responsible regardless of long-term consequences, or someone who was responsible and then automatically gets a free pass to abort the baby due to some bad luck. It's more of a conundrum than that.
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  8. #298
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    ^ What she said

    For my part: we're not perfect, we're humans, and we make mistakes, and sometimes that means our options become less than perfect. Doesn't make us bad people, nor does it excuse anything. And handling that situation is dependent on context. Accidents happen. And difficult choices are reality. And they're hard enough without anyone judging you over the fact that you opened your legs and that you're even considering your options at all instead of 'doing the right thing' without that person even having a clue of what it's like.

    I have no way of knowing what I'd do if I were to be in that situation. I've been sexually active for over 10 years, and there have been times where I forgot a pill, or I was sick, risking pregnancy. It happens. I got lucky. I always said I wouldn't abort though..when I was younger, I was pro adoption, and now I think I'd raise the baby. But I have no way of knowing what I genuinly would do (and I'd like to keep it that way!) But I'd like to have the reassurance that if that ever happens, the decision is mine, and mine alone, and nobody else can tell me what to do with my body.
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  9. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think actually all that is being said in a situation like this is that people are human... even when they're actually being responsible. They're still under a lot of various pressures and still prone to not thinking clearly and/or screwing up.

    The fact that some people are pretty irresponsible and need to start taking some responsibility for their choices isn't really the "prime situation" being discussed. I think generally people would agree that the extremes of (1) expecting people to be perfect vs (2) otherwise exonerating them of their actions are two poles to avoid.

    What happens with the basic human being, who wants to do right, who doesn't want to blow off their responsibilities, ends up in a situation like this at least partly by their own complicity and is having to process complex realities? (Whether it's a teenage girl who had sex with her bf partly because he pressured her but partly because she didn't want to lose him and/or wanted to rebel against her parents, OR another extreme, like the responsible mom who realizes she is pregnant with a baby with severe genetic issues that isn't expected to live a year or two past birth if not born dead and whose family does not have the resources to care for such a child?)

    There's been an increasing polarization happening in the discussion where one side treats the woman like a victim and the other side treats her cynically. it's not nearly as cut-and-dried as the pregnancy resulting from someone who was just utterly irresponsible and must now simply be responsible regardless of long-term consequences, or someone who was responsible and then automatically gets a free pass to abort the baby due to some bad luck. It's more of a conundrum than that.

    You still have to take responsibility for your actions, regardless. Your actions have effects, whether somebody punishes you or LIFE punishes you. there is no escape just because somebody wants to play victim. In most cases, both the man and the woman who messed up and created a child are responsible, and accountable for what they choose to do from then on. It applies to every other aspect of decision making in life, and it applies to this subject as well. Life is not fair. The world is not just. We make choices, we must live with the results of those choices. Things happen to us that really are out of our control, then we make CHOICES on how to respond, choices that are in our control. That is my point. The situation ends up different for everyone in regards to abortion, but nobody has grounds to suggest somebody is completely and wholly excused from how they choose to react to whatever situation may have given rise to the child being created. When you have the power to use your brain and make a choice in life, that is YOURS to own, and nobody elses. You are responsible for the choice you made and all the choices you didn't make.

    But don't mind me, I'm just a right wing nut.

  10. #300
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ..and you think that people who decide on abortion come to this decision lightly and never look back? That they don't live with those consequences, regardless of their choice? I agree with you when it comes to women that would use this as a contraceptive, instead of a last resort. But otherwise, I'd say their conscience will make sure they realize the consequences.
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