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  1. #281
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'd only be willing to HAVE a kid if I thought that the dude who caused it was good dad material and would stick around forever... I've seen way too many cases of unwanted or uncared for kids wandering about, and I thoroughly doubt my own motherhood capabilities!

    But yeah- I think that a woman bears the brunt of the burden of pregnancy and childcare, so I think that thier opinions should be weighted so!
    ^These are some of the legitimate reasons for one to be pro-choice. The analogies tried earlier are not legitimate reasons because nothing is a comparable situation (excluding instances in which the mother's life is in danger unless she aborts, but we're discussing abortion as a generalized concept, not extenuating circumstances kinds of abortions).
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #282
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    It's not a comparable analogy. Most abortions are not threatening to kill the mother, so the analogy is not comparable.

    Btw, I'm pro-choice.
    No, but it does demand a considerable toll from the body, it's not a walk in the park, and although it is clearly less likely with hospitals etc these days, you can still very much die from it. Same goes for the fire. You might still get found by firefighters, but you will still have a long time to recover from smoke inhalation, and second degree burns for instance, and the hospital will give you chances you otherwise wouldn't have, but the chance of dying is real, depending on how fast the fire spreads, how big a fire it is, the strenght of the building, where the fire is located compared to where you are, etc etc.

    I'll grant you that the time frame is different, but that's the only difference between the two, imo.
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    She didn't compare it to God, she compared it to the pope.
    The argument still stands actually. If we want to get into more specifics, many of the original arguments on this question did actually try to draw analogies between secular authority and that of the Pope. Most famous example of this was King Henry VIII, who determined that monarchs were popes in their own kingdoms - and thus could determine both political and religious matters of their subjects.


    Most Christians do not have faith in the pope being anything more than a flawed human at the top of a religious hierarchy.
    I really don't know about that, not least since Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination - with over a billion members.

    Your premise of this being a flawed analogy rests on the belief that the pope is representative of divine authority.
    Well that is the Catholic understanding of Papal authority. Not only do I find this analogy flawed, I find it rather unwise to make in the first place.

    I don't believe that, in the sense that he is any more knowledgeable about God than any other religious person seeking after God's truth.
    Well of course, you're a non-Catholic. However, if you're going to make analogies between secular authority and papal authority, it's still best to understand the nature of what you're talking about.

  4. #284
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post

    I'll grant you that the time frame is different, but that's the only difference between the two, imo.
    Nuh-uh.

    Sex by definition is the recipe for babies.

    They're not comparable circumstances--did the person stuck in the house fire situation take action that directly resulted in a house fire? And not just take action that incidentally resulted--did they take action that directly resulted, in the same manner that having sex directly resulted in a baby, i.e. they were playing with matches and lighter fluid around flammable objects?

    Answer: there is no proper analogy for abortion as a generalized concept.

    This does not devalue the pro-choice stance, and as I've said it's the stance I hold, but your analogy here is not comparable. Sex is the recipe for babies.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  5. #285
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Both are possible, but so they are with sex, if you take rape and uneducated/hormonal teens into the equation. I dunno, maybe my standards aren't as strict as yours, but it works as an analogy to me.
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  6. #286
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The argument still stands actually. If we want to get into more specifics, many of the original arguments on this question did actually try to draw analogies between secular authority and that of the Pope. Most famous example of this was King Henry VIII, who determined that kings were popes in their own kingdoms - and thus could determine both political and religious matters of their subjects.
    Rajah was talking about 20/21st century American supreme court decisions. So this historical reference is valuable on its own, but unrelated to her analogy's context.


    I really don't know about that, not least since Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination - with over a billion members.
    Those billion people hardly represent the number of believers who put their faith in the institution as defined by the institution. I know as friends/am related to several dozen Catholics (including my mother and family on her side) and only a handful of them take their faith seriously as defined by the Catholic church. Those billion people are not really a billion people who believe in the pope. We both know that's a weak argument.
    Well that is the Catholic understanding of Papal authority. Not only do I find this analogy flawed, I find it rather unwise to make in the first place.



    Well of course, you're a non-Catholic. However, if you're going to make analogies between secular authority and papal authority, it's still best to understand the nature of what you're talking about.
    I understand it fine--I disagree with the entire notion of Catholicism in an era when people can read the Bible and learn on their own. Just like I understand the notion of a literal creation story, I disagree with the notion in an era where I have scientific support to suggest otherwise.

    It is not a necessary premise for the purpose of the analogy you took exception to, so your exception has merit in isolation but fails to have merit in context of what you took exception to.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  7. #287
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Well, if you look at a teenage girl, unable to support the baby herself and therefore putting a financial burden on her parents for having to rescue it as well as the dangers and discomforts they'll have to help her with during the pregnancy...I dunno.
    yeah, I think stuff like that was my point.

    But even an extremity, like the "mom's life being in danger" and she already has kids... what then?
    Lots of hard choices to be made here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  8. #288
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Both are possible, but so they are with sex, if you take rape and uneducated/hormonal teens into the equation. I dunno, maybe my standards aren't as strict as yours, but it works as an analogy to me.
    It only works in "extenuating circumstances" kinds of abortions. If you're defending abortion as a whole, you need an analogy that encapsulates every kind of abortion which you won't be able to find (well, excluding late term abortions which are illegal anyway, but all the legal kinds).
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #289
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^ Sorry, thought you meant to say that that part of it was different in the analogy from the baby-thing
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  10. #290
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    It only works in "extenuating circumstances" kinds of abortions. If you're defending abortion as a whole, you need an analogy that encapsulates every kind of abortion which you won't be able to find (well, excluding late term abortions which are illegal anyway, but all the legal kinds).
    You can just as well be panicking because there's a fire a couple of rooms down that isn't so big yet, but the smoke makes you abandon the other person anyways. Context is everything.
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