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  1. #271
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    *feels that the topic should be banned to men until they can get knocked up*
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    This doesn't devalue the value of the analogy. Analogies are never perfect representations--this one holds the ideas it intends to relate.
    But it still involves a great deal of confusion as to the natures of both religious and political authority to make such an analogy. Not that it hasn't be made before, as you may remember from our private discussion - Carl Schmitt did that when explaining the concept of Political Theology:
    All significant concepts of the modern theory of the state are secularized theological concepts not only because of their historical development - in which they were transferred from theology to the theory of the state, whereby, for example, the omnipotent god became the omnipotent lawgiver - but also because of their systematic structure, the recognition of which is necessary for a sociological consideration of these concepts. The exception in jurisprudence is analogous to the miracle in theology. Only by being aware of this analogy can we appreciate the manner in which the philosophical ideas of the state developed in the last centuries.
    Now the connection between theological and political concepts is not in question; what has been hotly contested is the exact nature of that connection. However, to get into greater details about that would mean derailing the discussion.

  3. #273
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    For those who asked for an analogy, I'll give it a go:

    You find yourself in a burning building with another person inside. You don't know when or if the roof will come down on you, but the other person is hurt, and unable to walk out themselves. In fact, you're not even sure if they'd make it at all, if they're at all alive still. You'd have to not only support them but carry them out..You have the choice to take the risk of the burning building coming down on you and dying or being injured for life, and perhaps saving their life in the process...or you can walk out and save your neck.

    I know what I would do. Do you? And can you understand why someone else would pick the other option?

    Can we really blame the ones who decide to choose certainty of life and walk out that door? And...don't you think their conscience will already take care of any judgement you could possibly utter?


    Can your family and friends really blame you for staying inside and risking your life, considering the amount of hurt you're possibly about to put them through?

    Just my two cents...
    Unless you're talking specifically about abortion in the instance of a mother's life being knowingly threatened, i.e. her living existence is in danger, it is not comparable at all.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  4. #274
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    It is, you have no idea whether or not that roof is going to hold. It could very well, and you'd have all the time in the world to save that person. You just don't know what the danger is, same as with pregnancies.

    You asked for a situation where the person had to take action, this is one. Also, it requires her to take action based on her instincts, as it happens with most hook-ups.

    Whatever: I feel the same...I'm fond of the phrase: 'No uterus, no opinion!' but I have difficulty defending it rationally...care to help?
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  5. #275
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    But it still involves a great deal of confusion as to the natures of both religious and political authority to make such an analogy. Not that it hasn't be made before, as you may remember from our private discussion - Carl Schmitt did that when explaining the concept of Political Theology:


    Now the connection between theological and political concepts is not in question; what has been hotly contested is the exact nature of that connection. However, to get into greater details about that would mean derailing the discussion.
    She didn't compare it to God, she compared it to the pope. Most Christians do not have faith in the pope being anything more than a flawed human at the top of a religious hierarchy. The supreme court would similarly be flawed humans at the top of a political hierarchy.

    Your premise of this being a flawed analogy rests on the belief that the pope is representative of divine authority. I don't believe that, in the sense that he is any more knowledgeable about God than any other (similarly educated) religious person seeking after God's truth.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #276
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is, you have no idea whether or not that roof is going to hold. It could very well, and you'd have all the time in the world to save that person. You just don't know what the danger is, same as with pregnancies.

    You asked for a situation where the person had to take action, this is one. Also, it requires her to take action based on her instincts, as it happens with most hook-ups.

    Whatever: I feel the same...I'm fond of the phrase: 'No uterus, no opinion!' but I have difficulty defending it rationally...care to help?
    It's not a comparable analogy. Most abortions are not threatening to kill the mother, so the analogy is not comparable.

    Btw, I'm pro-choice.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  7. #277
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *feels that the topic should be banned to men until they can get knocked up*
    Or until they can be a father.

  8. #278
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Pretty much... and you're only presenting the most "selfish" end of the equation. Usually it's more complicated than that and not all stacked to be a purely "selfish" decision.

    (For example, what if you die in the building -- which seems likely -- and are no longer around to care for other people you're committed to?)

    The decision is not made in a vacuum nor is it ever able to be isolated so cleanly. In fact, one could actually "walk out of the building" while still basing that decision totally on the needs of others rather than oneself.
    Well, if you look at a teenage girl, unable to support the baby herself and therefore putting a financial burden on her parents for having to rescue it as well as the dangers and discomforts they'll have to help her with during the pregnancy...I dunno.
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  9. #279
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'd only be willing to HAVE a kid if I thought that the dude who caused it was good dad material and would stick around forever... I've seen way too many cases of unwanted or uncared for kids wandering about, and I thoroughly doubt my own motherhood capabilities!

    But yeah- I think that a woman bears the brunt of the burden of pregnancy and childcare, so I think that thier opinions should be weighted so!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #280
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'd only be willing to HAVE a kid if I thought that the dude who caused it was good dad material and would stick around forever... I've seen way too many cases of unwanted or uncared for kids wandering about, and I thoroughly doubt my own motherhood capabilities!

    But yeah- I think that a woman bears the brunt of the burden of pregnancy and childcare, so I think that thier opinions should be weighted so!
    Thank you!

    This thread makes me wish I was aborted.
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