for those against abortion

[foolish heart]

Though my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek, I make convincing, sound arguments. Until the obvious agenda of the pro-lifer is made clear (the surrender of everyone's right to their bodies and perspective of such to that of the pro-lifer's belief system) I will resort to attacking the supposed fundamentals of their positions.

What you seem to be forgetting is that if a fetus is a human, then abortion is murder. At that point, the issue becomes a matter of legality--the fetus represented by state prosecution and the mother as the defendant. What the pro-abortion argument suggests, essentially, is that there is no case in the first place because a fetus is not human and doesn't earn this right. The only time we legally sanction murder is for criminals who earn the death penalty.

Unless you are saying that a fetus is undeniably not a human, or that if it were that it is fit for sanctioned execution for "crimes against the womb" then I'm afraid the pro-abortion argument is not sound at all. What necessitates this discussion is the distinct possibility that a fetus is human in nature and thus deserves an unalienable right to life.

Maybe the judicial system doesn't fall within your beliefs, though.

 

[Tewt]

It can't be fixed, at least not without drastic government intervention into peoples' personal lives.


Why would we want to stop women from choosing abortion?


What's wrong with not giving men any say in the matter, but still trying to force them to pay?[/QUOTE]

If you don't think abortion is something that needs to be stopped, than what I'm saying has nothing to do with you. My point was that for all the people that proclaim abortion is so wrong and should be stopped, they need to be looking at the hows and whys it happens.

IMO, theres nothing wrong with not giving men or women the option of paying child support after it is ordered. The problem comes in when someone doesn't want to bad enough that they don't. The states child support systems are screwy. 2.5 billion is owed in Virginia child support cases right now...something has to change. This is mainly a male issue, but we can keep throwing up smoke screens of why it is not.

 

[Usehername]

That is what I'm arguing. However, you claim this lens can be lived in a just manner. If prioritizing human interests is a fundamental for anthropocentrism, then where is the justice for other species?

You haven't made any sort of argument here. Also, justice does not necessitate equal treatment. It just necessitates just treatment.

 

[Sniffles]

Though my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek, I make convincing, sound arguments.

No actually you're not.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Sure, we should respect others beliefs. But we are dealing here with issues that concerns elementary issues of human life; and what should take precedence in law - the good or one's rights. You really can't argue rights takes precedence over moral good, since rights themselves are based upon a conception of a moral good.

Whether intrinsically or consequentially, rights will generally take precedence over conflicting moral or social goods (this precedence can be proportional rather than dichotomous). Of course, in the case of abortion the rights of two separate vessels of human life are mutually opposed, so we're right back where we started....

I'm not really inclined to get into yet another abortion debate, but on a personal level: I lean strongly toward a "pro-life" position, and the moment I learned that abortion for the sake of convenience was not only legal but also very common was the moment that I lost any hope for the inherent "goodness" of human nature (I view human nature as essentially "neutral", albeit with the darker aspects quicker and easier to habituate). I don't lack the capacity to understand the opposing viewpoint, though, and certainly don't think that people who are "pro-choice" are inherently bad people-the OP needs to work on that.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

the moment I learned that abortion for the sake of convenience was not only legal but also very common was the moment that I lost any hope for the inherent "goodness" of human nature (I view human nature as essentially "neutral", albeit with the darker aspects quicker and easier to habituate). I don't lack the capacity to understand the opposing viewpoint, though, and certainly don't think that people who are "pro-choice" are inherently bad people-the OP needs to work on that.

Unfortunately it's not practiced enough to wean millions of sucklings off of the teats of social welfare. Abortion has been around for quite some time because it serves a worthy purpose. It ought to be used less, since many forms of birth control are available, but I'd rather have legal, common abortions than have dead babies in my dumpster or mothers throwing their babies off of bridges or irresponsible mothers and their soon-to-be prison bound children further screwing the rest of us out of a decent quality of life.

 

[Tewt]

Unfortunately it's not practiced enough to wean millions of sucklings off of the teats of social welfare. Abortion has been around for quite some time because it serves a worthy purpose. It ought to be used less, since many forms of birth control are available, but I'd rather have legal, common abortions than have dead babies in my dumpster or mothers throwing their babies off of bridges or irresponsible mothers and their soon-to-be prison bound children further screwing the rest of us out of a decent quality of life.

Again, another issue child support would fix. In most states, if a very minimal amount of child support is received they are automatically disqualified from welfare programs.

 

[Oberon]

Abortion has been around for quite some time because it serves a worthy purpose.

Yes, but the same is true of a great many things we don't permit... assault and battery, for example.

 

[InfiniteIntrigue]

I'm against one person taking another's life in general.
I don't like abortion.
I don't like the death penalty.
genocide is reprehensible.
and war can be pretty upsetting.

I feel anyone who commits or causes a murder should be punished
except in the case of justifiable homicide.

If I was to choose between killing a convicted murder and an innocent baby/fetus/whatever you wish to call it. I'd kill the murderer.

 

[IntrovertedThinker]

Aren't you all assuming abortion is murder in the first place?
Perhaps the first place to start is there, because assumptions are the worst impediment imaginable for any undertaking of understanding.

Create a logical discussion centered around the critical analysis of this assumption, or take a few months to critical analyze it individually, then come back here and post your findings.

"I have trouble seeing someone who agrees with abortion as anything but a killer"...

It's called logic. Learn to use it, please.

 

[Lark]

This is going to sound really bad. But I have a hard time with people who think abortion is ever permissible. I have a hard time understanding them, and seeing them as anyone other than a killer. They might as well say "I think you should kill anyone in your way in line at WalMart. Sort of.

People 100 years ago said "eh well, everyone's racist." And looking at it now, that's poor morality.

One explanation I've heard is -- "Well morality is at the heart, and its just a matter of getting to the head." But I dunno...

If you don't agree, don't worry about it. Just don't post. I just want to understand this all better.

I dont know I'd post a thread and then expect no response from the nay sayers, I'd ask trolls not to post but then I'd like trolls not to post anyway, they arent funny but contra opinions are fine.

I dont like the idea of abortion, so as a man I'm very careful and would plan carefully anything likely to result in an accidential or unwanted pregnancy, on the other hand I dont want it legally prohibited, perhaps the limits need to be looked at, given advances in medicine which have allowed children to be born and survive within the limits set by law earlier but I wouldnt want it prohibited.

Sometimes I've thought that the rolling out of implants or other contraceptives on an opt out rather than opt in basis would be a good idea, I feel the same way about organ donation too, I know the protest is that if you are or have parents or others who easily defer to authority or behave neglectfully then you'll automatically be included in the programme. Well, precively is my response to that.

I once heard that if the entire adolescent population of the UK was given contraceptive implants and it worked to plan it could guarantee five years of straight decline in criminality.

 

[Coriolis]

I once heard that if the entire adolescent population of the UK was given contraceptive implants and it worked to plan it could guarantee five years of straight decline in criminality.

This is not surprising. A noticeable decrease in the crime rate in key urban centers in the U.S. has been linked to the legalization of abortion. Fewer unwanted and uncared-for babies born to grow up to be criminals.

Unfortunately, the people who work most strenuously to ban/limit abortion often oppose the kind of reproductive and social services that would help people prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place, or at least be able to care properly for the offspring should one occur.

 

[Take Five]

This is not surprising. A noticeable decrease in the crime rate in key urban centers in the U.S. has been linked to the legalization of abortion. Fewer unwanted and uncared-for babies born to grow up to be criminals.

Unfortunately, the people who work most strenuously to ban/limit abortion often oppose the kind of reproductive and social services that would help people prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place, or at least be able to care properly for the offspring should one occur.

Blame the criminal, not the taxpayer.

 

[Lark]

I'd be willing to pay taxes to create some sort of opt out, rather than opt in, universal contraceptive service. The savings in prisons, social workers and foster care would make it worthwhile alone.

To the OP, did you think about creating a group? In the social groups you could create one which would be for only anti-abortionists and you could make it that membership was approved rather than general to underline that.

 

[Take Five]

I'd be willing to pay taxes to create some sort of opt out, rather than opt in, universal contraceptive service. The savings in prisons, social workers and foster care would make it worthwhile alone.

To the OP, did you think about creating a group? In the social groups you could create one which would be for only anti-abortionists and you could make it that membership was approved rather than general to underline that.

I think a lot of people will agree with you, but getting through the legislation process is a killer. There are or were some similar bills here in the US, but things haven't worked out yet.

 

[5231311252]

I think there are certain people having too many children and their burden becomes a burden on everyone else. Whatever prevents that is a plus in my book.

 

[Tiltyred]

I was a clerk in the Child Support Enforcement Office in Virginia Beach for 2 years. What I saw was poor people, that's all. The putative fathers didn't pay child support because they didn't have any money. They could barely make enough to support themselves, much less the children they fathered. People won't stop having sex, and many people regard children as the inevitable outcome of having sex, and take for granted they will have children whether they are married and prepared or not.

This is a matter of education -- that sex does not equal children IF YOU TAKE PRECAUTIONS. But taking precautions is counseled against through various channels and besides, aside from condoms which nobody likes to use, it's hard to get birth control unless you have a free clinic nearby (and funding has been reduced).

I don't think it does any good to blame the men for not paying child support. May as well blame the women for not using birth control.

And I'm not sure the segment of the population who are having the most trouble supporting their children are the ones who would use abortion clinics if they had them. If they were of the mindset that they should not have children because they could not afford them, they would have prevented conception in the first place.

 

[Ginkgo]

What's funnier than a dead baby?
A dead baby in a clown costume!

 

[Aleksei]

This is going to sound really bad. But I have a hard time with people who think abortion is ever permissible. I have a hard time understanding them, and seeing them as anyone other than a killer. They might as well say "I think you should kill anyone in your way in line at WalMart. Sort of.

People 100 years ago said "eh well, everyone's racist." And looking at it now, that's poor morality.

One explanation I've heard is -- "Well morality is at the heart, and its just a matter of getting to the head." But I dunno...

If you don't agree, don't worry about it. Just don't post. I just want to understand this all better.

Yes, I am a dirty baby killer. Tremble before me.

I support abortion for utilitarian reasons, myself. The kind of mother most likely to abort a child is the kind of mother we as a society shouldn't want raising children anyway.

 

[Tiltyred]

Hey! This is not a time for levity!