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  1. #261
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    For those who asked for an analogy, I'll give it a go:

    You find yourself in a burning building with another person inside. You don't know when or if the roof will come down on you, but the other person is hurt, and unable to walk out themselves. In fact, you're not even sure if they'd make it at all, if they're at all alive still. You'd have to not only support them but carry them out..You have the choice to take the risk of the burning building coming down on you and dying or being injured for life, and perhaps saving their life in the process...or you can walk out and save your neck.

    I know what I would do. Do you? And can you understand why someone else would pick the other option?

    Can we really blame the ones who decide to choose certainty of life and walk out that door? And...don't you think their conscience will already take care of any judgement you could possibly utter?


    Can your family and friends really blame you for staying inside and risking your life, considering the amount of hurt you're possibly about to put them through?

    Just my two cents...
    Wow I was just about to say that.

    There is a person inside and you are aware.
    There is a person inside and you aren't aware.
    There isn't a person inside and you are aware.
    There isn't a person inside and you aren't aware.

    1. you get them
    2. you go try. * this is the case. The baby could die anyway. The person could also die of a heart attack inside the builing before you get to them. Does that make ok to choose whether to go in or not. You just go in. Its just as irresponsible as if you knew they were there and healthy.
    3. don't go.
    4. don't go.

  2. #262
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I would understand, however, if someone were to choose not to do that. The fear, the urge to survive..the sheer urge to not have your life be impacted and completely turned upside down. For that matter, the knowledge that you're incapable of doing what it is that you know you should (You're 100 pounds and the guy you have to carry outside is 250). The sheer look of the other person and his injuries and pain make you not wanna deal with the situation and flee instead (emotional trauma).. It's understandable.
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  3. #263
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The constitution describes the fundamental rights of the people and the government. Nothing about its purpose or function prohibits states from passing laws on areas not covered by the constitution, except for where those laws would conflict with the rights specifically granted by the constitution.

    I don't care what the subject is, that's just factually incorrect.
    Ever heard of Roe v. Wade?

    Much like the Pope is to Catholicism, the Supreme Court is to the Constitution. And the Supreme Court specifically protected that zone of bodily privacy, giving a woman the right to terminate her pregnancy until the fetus is viable.

    The foundation of the argument, then, is when is a fetus "viable." You're going to have a hard time convincing even the most die-hard pro-choice person (me, for example) that an abortion in the second or third trimester is okay in nearly any circumstance. (I say "nearly" only because I can imagine someone coming up with some scenario that I can't conceive of at the moment - I'm leaving it open for the possibility.) The most die-hard pro-life person thinks a fetus is viable at conception - okay, even before conception. The Court wisely ducked the question, theorizing that if a bunch of trained medical professionals can't arrive at a consensus, then a bunch of stuffy judges certainly couldn't.

    Now, people criticizing Roe v. Wade say that the decision is fundamentally wrong because it's speaking about stuff that isn't in the Constitution. This is kind of true. There is no "right to privacy" in the Constitution, per se, but this right is read into the penumbras of the Constitution. It's basically a gleaned right.

    The Court has considered various state laws curbing abortion rights since Roe v. Wade, but it has pretty uniformly upheld Roe v. Wade. A notable exception is in 2003, when the Court upheld the constitutionality of the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, which is a federal statute.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  4. #264
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    cogent post
    Apparently, I should have scrolled down.

    If it was up to me they would fit every girl with an IUD when she hit puberty until she got married (or got a permanent domestic partner) and the partner agreed to having a child and jointly taking care of it at least until the kid was 18. (or reversible vasectomy for men if they find a reliable procedure they could reverse) But this isnt gonna happen either.
    Especially not under Roe v. Wade.

    And *shudder* at the idea.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  5. #265
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    May I ask, who are we to judge when a fetus is ok to be killed? I think we all fail to realise that we're all here because we WERE'NT aborted, or the abortion failed. We all had a chance at life...so why do we choose who lives and who doesnt?
    We judge people all the time. Why does abortion get some special exception? I'm pretty sure all of us can grasp the nature of, "Hey, I'm here. And if I had been aborted, I wouldn't be here, now would I?" It's not exactly rocket science, y'know.

    Also, the whole Roe versus Wade deal. The woman, Norma Micorvey, didn't she lie about being rapped? If this is true, the legalization of abortion is all set up on a lie. The insident wasn't even portrayed truthfully.
    Yes, Norma McCorvey lied about being raped. How is this relevant to the constitutional right to bodily privacy? It's not. Whether or not she lied has absolutely nothing to do with the constitutional question of privacy rights. Those questions could be answered in the abstract, if not for the legal doctrine that the Supreme Court can only address actual cases and controversies before them. When Norma McCorvey's case came before the Court, she wasn't just addressing her own rights - she was kind of the spokesperson for women. Constitutional questions aren't, by nature, about the person in front of the Court. Those people are representatives. So Norma McCorvey's fact pattern doesn't matter one whit.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    Much like the Pope is to Catholicism, the Supreme Court is to the Constitution.
    Woah, that's quite an analogy there!

  7. #267
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Woah, that's quite an analogy there!
    Both the final arbiters of their field? I think it's actually pretty accurate.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I would understand, however, if someone were to choose not to do that. The fear, the urge to survive..the sheer urge to not have your life be impacted and completely turned upside down. For that matter, the knowledge that you're incapable of doing what it is that you know you should (You're 100 pounds and the guy you have to carry outside is 250). The sheer look of the other person and his injuries and pain make you not wanna deal with the situation and flee instead (emotional trauma).. It's understandable.
    Pretty much... and you're only presenting the most "selfish" end of the equation. Usually it's more complicated than that and not all stacked to be a purely "selfish" decision.

    (For example, what if you die in the building -- which seems likely -- and are no longer around to care for other people you're committed to?)

    The decision is not made in a vacuum nor is it ever able to be isolated so cleanly. In fact, one could actually "walk out of the building" while still basing that decision totally on the needs of others rather than oneself.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    Both the final arbiters of their field? I think it's actually pretty accurate.
    No it isn't. You cannot confuse religious authority with political authority. One is the representative of God, the other of the people. Very big difference here.

  10. #270
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No it isn't. You cannot confuse religious authority with political authority. One is the representative of God, the other of the people. Very big difference here.
    This doesn't devalue the value of the analogy. Analogies are never perfect representations--this one holds the ideas it intends to relate.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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