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  1. #231
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TickTock View Post
    Definately the oak tree.
    Scratch that. I was going for the joke, like "what's the sound of one hand clapping?" Then you clap with your finger on your palm. I don't want to get involved.
    ~ Truth ~ Freedom ~ Health ~ Love ~ Communication ~ Humor ~ Respect ~

  2. #232
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    No one denies that life begins at conception. But it is irrelevant. We kill people all the time. We also fail to save people all the time. You need to prove that the woman is obligated to lend her body out for 9 months to save the fetus.

    If you can't prove it, then I stick with my original position, that abortion ought to be a personal choice.

    The value of human life is infinite and intrinsic. Valuable, regardless of its usefulness, and ends in themselves. Whether or not the child is infringing on the 'rights' on the mother is irrelevant. It's part of the necessary process of having a baby. She knew beforehand what it takes to have a baby--9 months with it inside of you. It's not a surprise; everyone knows that. Why wouldn't she have an obligation? Why would the lending out of the body for 9 months override the lifehood of the fetus which you admitted to?

    And even if you don't buy that, it doesn''t follow that it should be legislated as choice. If you buy choice, then you're saying it could be right, it could be wrong. So you're legislating something that's potentially wrong. Would you legislate stealing as legal and let the individual decide? Don't you think stealing is wrong? See the quote below.

    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    1. You know it's a baby, and it is.
    2. You know it's not a baby, and it isn't
    3. You don't know if its a baby or not, and it is.
    4. You don't know if its a baby or not, and it isn't.

    1. obviously wrong
    2. nothing wrong
    3. irresponsible
    4. irresponsible
    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    It's the definition of human life that's at the heart of this debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    That and the VALUE we place on human life, which i argue is being diminished in the line of thinking that permits abortion.
    Yep. I think the definition is getting too scientific. These detached, impersonal, intellectual scientific definitions have no bite to them. They have no guilt attached. Moral definitions do have guilt to them. They address the real world and real life and the real guilt that you feel when you have an abortion. Even if you defined it scientifically, you'd still have to tie it back into morality. And when you do that, regardless of all the scientific jargon, you'll find that when you get pregnant, a baby will come out. In 9 months. Not a lizard, not a monkey, not a cantaloupe. A baby that was once part of you. A baby that is you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post

    If you are personally against having an abortion, guess what, don't ever have one.
    By that same logic, I can say "If you are against me stealing, guess what, don't let me steal. Lock your stuff up." "If you are against Columbine, guess what, don't shoot up your cafeteria and shut up."

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Leave me and my uterus alone, they're entirely my business and not yours.
    By that same logic, I can say "Leave me and my choices alone, they're my business. if I want to murder, let me murder. If I want to steal, let me steal." The fact that your body's involved is irrelevant. It's either wrong or its not, regardless of the extrinsic price you have to pay.

    You could argue that stealing is legislated as illegal for utilitarian purposes, but come on now. It's wrong. Legislation is morality. The only thing you can legislate is morality. Even if you said , "do whatever you please, as long as its your choice, and doesn't infringe upon others' choice," then that is also a morality. So morality is unavoidable. So let's go with "Life is intrinsically valuable."

  3. #233
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    How has the abortion I decided to make when I was 19 personally affected you?!?!??!

    I was 19, the boy who knocked me up was 20, and the fetus I aborted was 6 weeks old!!!

    I would have ruined my life, the potential baby's life, the father's life as well as my entire family's life.

    If you value a 6 week old fetus over a 19 year old's life, there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

    Do you even know what a six week old fetus is?!?!?
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  4. #234
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    If my choices do NOT affect you, you're damn right they are my right to choose.

    If I go on a killing spree, and kill a bunch of teenagers and adults, that infringes on their, and the ones who love them, rights.

    If I steal a car, that infringes on the car owner's rights.

    Duh.

    However, I should infringe upon my own rights because a 6 week old fetus has more, or just as much a right to a proper life as I do?!?!?!?
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #235
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    How has the abortion I decided to make when I was 19 personally affected you?!?!??!

    I was 19, the boy who knocked me up was 20, and the fetus I aborted was 6 weeks old!!!

    I would have ruined my life, the potential baby's life, the father's life as well as my entire family's life.

    If you value a 6 week old fetus over a 19 year old's life, there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

    Do you even know what a six week old fetus is?!?!?
    It hasn't affected me. If you watched someone steal something, would you react? If you heard a child screaming in the night, yelling for help, would you act?

    You don't know if your life would have been ruined. Therefore you could be mistaken. But this isn't a matter to be taken in the hands of the individual. It is objective--independent of the human mind. You said you value human life, and that abortion was a last resort. When would come the point where its the individual's choice? After all, it's uncertain what would have happened.

  6. #236
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I take it you are one to believe that condoms are baby killers.

    That birth control is the devil.

    That using Plan B is potentially commiting murder.

    Why?

    Because life is intrinsically valuable.

    No, if you were to argue that, you would say, because *potential* life is intrinsically valuable.

    I am one to believe that an *actual* human life is more valuable than semen, or a zygote.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #237
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    If my choices do NOT affect you, you're damn right they are my right to choose.

    If I go on a killing spree, and kill a bunch of teenagers and adults, that infringes on their, and the ones who love them, rights.

    If I steal a car, that infringes on the car owner's rights.

    Duh.

    However, I should infringe upon my own rights because a 6 week old fetus has more, or just as much a right to a proper life as I do?!?!?!?
    But I'm not supporting the "don't infringe on others' rights" type of legislation that you do. I believe in "legislate what's objectively right." I think that's where we differ. I don't know if you believe in "objectively right.".

    And yes, the fetus has just as much right to a proper life as you do.

  8. #238
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    It hasn't affected me. If you watched someone steal something, would you react? If you heard a child screaming in the night, yelling for help, would you act?

    You don't know if your life would have been ruined. Therefore you could be mistaken. But this isn't a matter to be taken in the hands of the individual. It is objective--independent of the human mind. You said you value human life, and that abortion was a last resort. When would come the point where its the individual's choice? After all, it's uncertain what would have happened.
    A FETUS IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL!!!!!!!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #239
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I take it you are one to believe that condoms are baby killers.

    That birth control is the devil.

    That using Plan B is potentially commiting murder.

    Why?

    Because life is intrinsically valuable.

    No, if you were to argue that, you would say, because *potential* life is intrinsically valuable.

    I am one to believe that an *actual* human life is more valuable than semen, or a zygote.

    I don't know about the condom thing, since semen isn't much without an egg to go with it.

    And i don't see why the *potential* distinction matters. It's not potential life anymore once it hooks up with the egg. It's life.

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    If my choices do NOT affect you, you're damn right they are my right to choose.

    If I go on a killing spree, and kill a bunch of teenagers and adults, that infringes on their, and the ones who love them, rights.

    If I steal a car, that infringes on the car owner's rights.

    Duh.

    However, I should infringe upon my own rights because a 6 week old fetus has more, or just as much a right to a proper life as I do?!?!?!?
    If you were the baby, and you had a functioning mind, would you choose to be aborted and killed instead of having a chance to exist in the physical world (perhaps the only form of existence there is)? Would you not take the opportunity to live, to be? Doesn't that beat the alternative? It's not as if you'd be born into literal fire and brimstone hell.

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