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  1. #211
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I miss the days when society was beholden to religious values, and we all made decisions for ourselves based on those common values. Now what do we have? A festering turd of a morality standard, constantly teetering on relying on government to make choices for us since we lack anything else to latch onto in the absence of religious faith and family values. It saddens me, even as someone who is not religious. Freedom cannot survive under such conditions.
    Oh boy, it's my favorite far rightist platitude--"Freedom is doomed if people don't adhere to my personal arbitrary standards of morality!"

    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Oh boy, it's my favorite far rightist platitude--"Freedom is doomed if people don't adhere to my personal arbitrary standards of morality!"

    I didn't create the nature of human behavior. Blame... evolution -_- .

  3. #213
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    No one denies that life begins at conception.
    Jews do!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #214
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Hmmmn....interesting, I don't recall making any specific religious references there. If anything I was basing my argument on Aristotle and vaguely Kantian ethics as well. One doesn't necessarily have to be religious in order to be against abortion.
    im familiar with the Aristotle and Kant references. However, if this is a notion of "ethics" as I think you said, and not biology, then we are invoking metaphysical assumptions (even if they are only implied).

    While synthetic a priori's of something like geometry (think of all those "there are no ______ _____s) may be true for everyone, synthetic a priori s of ethics are pretty much only going to be "true for you" (believe it or not, this idea does not excite me).

    I get where you are going with the Aristotle thing about making your own life intrinsically valuable:

    Appealing to the differences between a fetus and a child is really a red herring, since Personhood is an ethical not a biological category. One's Personhood is not determined by what exact stage of biological development you're in, it's an instrinstic value - based upon the key notion that human life is a good in of itself.

    This also ties into issues of "quality" of life; which treats life as merely a means, not an end. As Aristotle put it in Rhetoric: "And life: since, even if no other good were the result of life, it is desirable in itself."
    The very fact that you are divorcing "person hood" from biology means "person hood" is taking on "an essence" and is such either a metaphorical (holds no prescriptive weight) or is a metaphysical (holds prescriptive weight for anyone who believes in it).

    I too believe that life is obviously intrinsically valuable. Sadly, there isnt any deductive logic to bridge it to something I can definitively say must be true "for everyone". Metaphysics are the elephant in the room for this thread.

    I'll leave you with a Nietzsche reference:
    Just because I think "slave morality" makes mankind happier on average (in a sort of game theory sense), does not mean that I can prove "slave morality" is prescriptively right for everyone. Further, just because its obvious to me that "slave morality" tends to lead to on avg a happier human race, does not mean I can say that "master morality" is metaphysically wrong or right.

    you might wonder how that relates to this thread: there is a difference between something being right for you, and prescriptively right for everyone.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    im familiar with the Aristotle and Kant references. However, if this is a notion of "ethics" as I think you said, and not biology, then we are invoking metaphysical assumptions (even if they are only implied).

    While synthetic a priori's of something like geometry (think of all those "there are no ______ _____s) may be true for everyone, a priori's of ethics are pretty much only going to be "true for you" (believe it or not, this idea does not excite me).

    I get where you are going with the Aristotle thing about making your own life intrinsically valuable:



    The very fact that you are divorcing "person hood" from biology means "person hood" is taking on "an essence" and is such either a metaphorical (holds no prescriptive weight) or is a metaphysical (holds prescriptive weight for anyone who believes in it).

    I too believe that life is obviously intrinsically valuable. Sadly, there isnt any deductive logic to bridge it to something I can definitively say must be true "for everyone". Metaphysics are the elephant in the room for this thread.

    I'll leave you with a Nietzsche reference:
    Just because I think "slave morality" makes mankind happier on average (in a sort of game theory sense), does not mean that I can prove "slave morality" is prescriptively right for everyone. Further, just because its obvious to me that "slave morality" tends to lead to on avg a happier human race, does not mean I can say that "master morality" is metaphysically wrong or right.
    So what's your point here?

  6. #216
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    22 pages? See, here's the problem with y'all posting on this topic - you are all full of sh*t.

    ... I'm guessing you are (really) basing your arguments out of your own personal 'vendettas' - and looking for the vast majority of people, here... they aren't particularly good ones.

    This topic is fucked up, and that's about that. Although, what I can agree on, which I thought about (myself) is - it would have been fairer given we lived in the early days where our lives were not made (forcibly) easier. But then, even that wouldn't answer to how much abortion deprives the life pre-birth...

  7. #217
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So what's your point here?
    you might wonder how that relates to this thread: there is a difference between something being right for you, and prescriptively right for everyone.

    (i added that after you quoted me )

    I just cant possible see how you can divorce metaphysics from this debate. Its been logically proven over and over again, that metaphysical beliefs regarding ethics can only ever be 100% right "for you". How are we going to legislate based on "right for you"?

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    I just cant possible see how you can divorce metaphysics from this debate.
    Well you can't, but that doesn't mean one has to resort to "religious" arguments though per se.

    Its been logically proven over and over again, that metaphysical beliefs regarding ethics can only ever be right "for you". How are we going to legislate based on "right for you"?
    Well I guess I can offer the Personalist perspective that defines reason as the self's capacity to synthesize objectivity(primarily) with subjectivity(secondary). Objectivity involves our capacity to act, feel, think in terms of our relationship with others. Subjectivity involves our capacity to act, feel, think for itself in the sense of absolute freedom.

    So essentially the issue of what's right for me is balanced off with what's right for others, in a sense of mutuality involved.

  9. #219
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I don't understand your position. If you are not asserting that having sex obligates the woman to carry the fetus, then what is the relevance of agency?
    The relevance of agency is that you cannot find an appropriate metaphor to support your position, because though I haven't analyzed every possibility out there, I'm pretty sure there is no comparable analogy.

    It's a pretty unique situation, if you think about it.

    Humans, above all else, value human life (if not others' lives, at least their own human life).

    The whole idea of a man and woman conceiving and then a woman carrying a child is just a huge concept, as mundane as it is in practice.

    I think if humans were ever totally in agreement regarding how to go about valuing human life (because there is an antagonistic relationship sometimes between what is best for the mother and what is best for her baby) then humanity would have lost its humanness.

    The point, btw, is that your analogy is inherently flawed--the point was that you had no ground to stand on with your argument, which is important to note. Sometimes we get caught up knowing that our stance has merit and forget how to attend to and properly defend our position.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #220
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    I'm against abortion, but I don't argue about it much anymore, it's just too depressing/frustrating.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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