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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    And so you make decisions, and you live with the consequences. The purpose behind regulating abortion would be to add consequences to effect people's decision making. No free will is taken, you just simply have more incentive to act a certain way.
    Why is that desirable? Keep in mind that I don't believe a fertilized egg is a person. If I was the woman, why would I want to restrict my freedom simply because it offends someone else's morals?

    Some people believe that eating meat is immoral. Does that mean that everyone must become vegetarians?

  2. #202
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    So you're asserting that having sex obligates the woman to carry an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy to full term? This is a very contentious point.
    lol, I didn't assert anything. All I said was that you're executing a fallacious analogy.
    Stop and think of an accurate analogy--you genuinely need an example when the individual with agency is not held responsible for the action. And I'll bet that you cannot think of a proper analogy, because I cannot think of one to support your analogy either.

    This in no way dismisses the pro-choice stance, I'm only calling out poor argumentation.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Stop and think of an accurate analogy--you genuinely need an example when the individual with agency is not held responsible for the action. And I'll bet that you cannot think of a proper analogy, because I cannot think of one to support your analogy either.
    The analogy is sound if you believe, as I do, that having sex does not obligate a women to rent her body out.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Why is that desirable? Keep in mind that I don't believe a fertilized egg is a person. If I was the woman, why would I want to restrict my freedom simply because it offends someone else's morals?

    Some people believe that eating meat is immoral. Does that mean that everyone must become vegetarians?
    In CA they regulate where a fast food restaurant can be setup so they can keep people from getting fat. They regulate what can be put in school soda and snack machines to keep kids from getting fat. They want to put extra taxes on sodas and junk food to keep people from getting fat. It is the same logic. The same faulty logic, but that's how things work this day and age. The war against fat people in CA hasn't actually instituted any policies that change behavior. It just makes fat people go elsewhere for their food/drink, and gives the state extra tax revenue. Penalizing abortion would be in the same vain, although one could argue that the penalties could be great enough to make people think twice about getting an abortion for petty selfish reasons, as well as increase the number of secretive self induced abortions, which is a problem.

    This is why government involvement is not ideal in ANY micromanagement of behavior. I think abortion is wrong, I don't think it's helpful to society, but I also don't actually believe in using the state to force/influence behavior. Society will have to be left to its own devices if it is to be a "fee" society, for better or worse. Problem is if the society keeps faltering towards "worse", it will likely lose more than it gained in keeping and abusing those freedoms. It is a moral issue.

  5. #205
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I find this interesting because I'm your age but I'm reluctant to consider adoption as an option due mainly to the horrifying things you so often see in foster care....and even if it doesn't get to the abuse levels, you can't really know how the adoptive parents will treat the child...or even that it'd be adopted at all. And then you have the adopted child later in life wondering why you "threw him away" and didn't want him etc etc. Not to say there aren't amazing foster parents (there are), you just can't know for sure without an open adoption.
    Yikes. You don't even know how good of a parent you or the father will be, even if you are married and plan your child. Also, are you saying it's better if people who were subjected to abuse as kids were not ever born? Your child could be abused by a family member without your consent, your kid could be born with a defect, your child could be run over by a car. Everyone has crappy things happen in life.

    This really has nothing to do with the abortion discussion, I just couldn't handle seeing that post stand without the other side being mentioned.

  6. #206
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The analogy is sound if you believe, as I do, that having sex does not obligate a women to rent her body out.
    No. It is not a sound analogy--both of them shift the agency from one party to another party.

    The stance itself has valid points. However, the analogy is flawed, regardless of one's beliefs.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  7. #207
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    I think the distinction we need to make is that pro-chocies believe in "choice" not that abortion is right or wrong". Given that, consider that you have an abortion and consider this:

    You know it's a baby, and it is.
    You know it's not a baby, and it isn't
    You don't know if its a baby or not, and it is.
    You don't know if its a baby or not, and it isn't.

    1. obviously wrong
    2. nothing wrong
    3. irresponsible
    4. irresponsible

    So the claim that "We don't know if its a baby or not, so let's legislate it anyway" doesn't work.

    SO, is it a baby? Life begins at conception. I don't know how clearer I can put it. When you get pregnant, a baby will come out. It will happen every single time.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I would consider a fetus part of someone's body when it's in the womb.

    Even then, sure I respect your belief. But I don't respect that people shouldn't have the right to do what they want. If you are against abortion, then don't get one. Don't force your beliefs on others.
    Just because its part of the body, then its ok to kill the child?

    What if it wasn't part of the body?
    - If it would be wrong to kill the baby in this case, then human life would be valuable. In this case, the value of human life would trump the inconvenience of carrying it around for 9 months.
    - If it'd be right to kill the baby, well that's fucked up.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    The law should allow us to make decisions like this based on what WE consider good or bad. It's our right to exercise what we see as morally good in my opinion (as long as it isn't crazy stuff like ritual killings and sacrifice, you know what I mean).

    As I said, what's the issue? If you don't believe it, don't practice it.
    According to this, we could say, "allow people to choose whether or not to murder adults innocently, allow people to choose to steal, etc". Obviously that's moral bankruptcy. If that were the case, the constitution would be one line: "Do as you please, as long as it doesn't interfere with other people." Well, I am gonna limit your freedom, and I am gonna step on your toes. Forgive me if I say "It's wrong to steal from the innocent when expedient".

    The only thing we can legislate is morality. If you say
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    The law should allow us to...
    That's a morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Well we are divided as a society already when it comes to certain beliefs. The abortion issue will NEVER be objectively and unshakeably true, because it's based on opinion.
    Is that so? Why is it based on opinion? Because we disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    First, why is it necessary that all human life has the same value and the same rights? Couldn't human beings in one stage be accorded different rights than those in another? Does a person have a right to have a limb amputated, or is that wrong because the limb contains "human life" in the form of cells?
    Why isn't it necessary that all human life has the same value and the same rights? Life is life. Intrinsically valuable. Not to be used. Plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Second, why is the death seen as a "loss"? A loss of what, they haven't lived a life or had any meaningful experiences yet.
    When you die, you lose the future, not the past. The past already happened. So, whether or not they have had experiences yet is irrelevant. In fact, it hurts the argument-- If they haven't experienced anything yet, they've lost everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Who are you to say that a person is allowed to take one action and accept that set of consequences, but not to choose the other action and accept the consequences? Why should a person not be allowed to take an action that modifies the consequences of a previous action? It's not true that abortion has no consequences... it does. They're just different from the consequences of NOT having one.
    Which consequences are we talking about here? The people who have to deal with it, or whether or not an infinitely and intrinsically valuable human exists or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    A self defense argument could be made also. The woman is acting to prevent a being from invading and using her body for 9 months. Even if the being was a full fledged person, does it have the rights to use her body without her consent?
    becuse it just happens to be in her body? That's part of the baby-making process! The girl knew that before she got pregnant. It's not a surprise. You can either say "I killed my baby" or "I have to put up with being a host to this 'parasite' for a few months, which is the only way to have a baby." Which is worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I don't think it's accurate to say that most women who got abortions would choose pregnancy if they had to do it again. They might regret it, but they might have regretted pregnancy more.
    The whole reason you regret something is because the other option was better. You can't regret two mutually exclusive choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Sex can be done for recreation rather than procreation. Just because a woman has sex doesn't mean that she consented to rent her body out for nine months.
    Yes it does. Would you say, "hey, I gave my husband consent to impregnante me, and I'm giving the baby consent to use my body as its host." She knows how pregnancy works. No one says, "no its cool, i'll get an abortion, just stick it in"

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If you eat at at restaurant, there is the possibility that you will get food poisoning. But does that mean you consented to it?
    YES!!! You take a chance in everything that you do. You gotta deal with it. You learn that when you grow up. That's life.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    No. It is not a sound analogy--both of them shift the agency from one party to another party.
    I don't understand your position. If you are not asserting that having sex obligates the woman to carry the fetus, then what is the relevance of agency?

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    SO, is it a baby? Life begins at conception. I don't know how clearer I can put it. When you get pregnant, a baby will come out. It will happen every single time.
    No one denies that life begins at conception. But it is irrelevant. We kill people all the time. We also fail to save people all the time. You need to prove that the woman is obligated to lend her body out for 9 months to save the fetus.

    If you can't prove it, then I stick with my original position, that abortion ought to be a personal choice.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    No one denies that life begins at conception. But it is irrelevant. We kill people all the time. We also fail to save people all the time. You need to prove that the woman is obligated to lend her body out for 9 months to save the fetus.

    If you can't prove it, then I stick with my original position, that abortion ought to be a personal choice.
    I miss the days when society was beholden to religious values, and we all made decisions for ourselves based on those common values. Now what do we have? A festering turd of a morality standard, constantly teetering on relying on government to make choices for us since we lack anything else to latch onto in the absence of religious faith and family values. It saddens me, even as someone who is not religious. Freedom cannot survive under such conditions.

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