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  1. #11
    Une Femme est une femme paperoceans's Avatar
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    I kind of wish people had more abortions. The more the merrier
    Between that cigarillo and sticking my finger down my throat to see if I could DT, I feel like puking RN.

    Read my Blog.

  2. #12
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    I see abortion as the survival of the fittest. It is what it is. Life. In this case, women have the power to make that choice. It will stay on their conscience forever. Make sure you've taken every precaution not to get pregnant. But there must be an option to make that choice.

  3. #13
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Hmm. Topics like this make me wonder how we are 'we' - and moreover what things are about up until now.

    ... It is quite fucked up, to be honest. Don't know if I could get round to anything else about it. We've all come from the cradle, and it's no saying what it could have been considering someone, or some fetus got aborted pre-birth. Some births are prized, which aggravates the issue farther - whereas some may not be. What can one really say?

    (This is exactly why I'm not considering kids - for the record.)

  4. #14
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    I personally have no interest in regulating other peoples bodily functions. Let them choose as they will.

    Conversely, I have a right to choose myself and choose not to remain intimate with women who have had abortions.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Risen I think you are missing the point. The applicability of the U.S. Constitution is governed by the jurists on the U.S. Supreme Court and ever since Roe v. Wade (1973) they have upheld the right for the mother to choose to abort under the 1st Amendment implicit right to privacy.
    Your Republican party have conned the “Right to Lifers” by saying they would appoint jurists to overrule Roe v. Wade. yet they appointed jurists such as O’Connor, Kennedy, Souter and Stevens. At least the Democrats didn't try to con their constituents that way. Technically Roe could allow limited abortions of the fetus that reaches the stage of viability, but that just isn't going to happen either* (if it was going to happen it would have happened George Ws term but apparently he was too busy killing children in Iraq and Afghanistan to care (*Besides the Partial Birth Abortion Ban which is essentially insignificant).
    Absent the U.S. Supreme Court overturning or severely distinguishing states rights under Roe v. Wade and its successors the states have no say. Absent an amendment to the U.S. Constitution the people have no say.
    I'll give you the recognition of your argument having merit in regards to roe vs. wade. One could say the gov doesn't have the right to regulate what someone does to themselves (if the fetus is considered to be a part of the mother, by virtue of the fact that it is inside the mother), however, that does not hold given the current state of our laws. If One is found to exhibit behavior harmful to themselves and/or their own well being, there are many laws that come in to interfere with their right to do what they wish. Inflicting damage upon yourself (attempted suicide, self mutilation, certain psychological conditions) gives the state the right to intervene and correct the problem (such as institutionalizing them), if I'm not mistaken. However, I think those laws would not prohibit the act itself, but rather give the state the right to take action after the fact or upon evidence that the person will be a harm to themselves. Thusly, by the precedent set, you cannot make having an abortion (the killing of a growing entity within the individual and considered part of the individual) illegal, but you can regulate penalties on people who DO have abortions, after the fact, which would deter people from doing it. It might also be constitutional to regulate hospitals/clinics and make it illegal for them to GIVE abortions.

    And please, not the Bush is a baby killer bullcrap. You know we're fighting are the ones both killing their own people and putting them in danger, as shields. Either way, war is messy, and nobody can be righteous, as they have all stained their hands with blood to protect the blood of others.

  6. #16
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    I agree with the OP. The fetus is a living organism in that, it is growing and its cells are multiplying.

    If you spray weed killer on a seed as it germinates, even though it is not a plant yet, you are in fact killing a plant.
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #17
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    under assumption naturalism:
    --Its tempting to say that until the fetus has a functioning brain, you cannot possibly consider it to be a person...I mean if there have never been any brain waves, how can it have a "personality" mapped to its physical being?

    however, even a new born baby lacks any sort of set "brain pattern" linked to something of a personhood above:

    Scientists are just now realizing how experiences after birth, rather than something innate, determine the actual wiring of the human brain. "Only 15 years ago," reports the Families and Work Institute in the just-re-leased study "Rethinking the Brain," "neuroscientists assumed that by the time babies are born, the structure of their brains [had been] genetically determined." But by last year researchers knew that was wrong. Instead, early-childhood experiences exert a dramatic and precise impact, physically determining how the intricate neural circuits of the brain are wired (NEWSWEEK, Feb. 19, 1996). Since then they have been learning how those experiences shape the brain's circuits.

    At birth, the brain's 100 billion or so neurons form more than 50 trillion connections (synapses). The genes the baby carries-from the egg and sperm that made him-have already determined his brain's basic wiring. They have formed the connections in the brain stem that will make the heart beat and the lungs respire. But that's all. Of a human's 80,000 different genes, fully half are believed to be involved in forming and running the central nervous system. Yet even that doesn't come close to what the brain needs. In the first months of life, the number of synapses will increase 20-fold-to more than 1,000 trillion. There simply are not enough genes in the human species to specify so many connections.
    How To Build A Baby's Brain | Newsweek.com

    Its not legal to murder brain wave-less vegetables, for good reason. So what do unkillable lower animals have (ie pet dogs), that babies have, that make them "unkillable"? A heart beat comes to mind...however, people have killed mice that aren't in our favor.

    Sadly, under the naturalism assumption: killing fetuses or even new borns seems to be wrong if its a) illegal, b) the baby is valued by someone else. until it has a "brain pattern" its just not justifiably intrinsically valuable.

    this is an admittedly grisly conclusion. Think how ridiculous it would be though to ever find a baby that was actually valued by no one...not as possible as you might think. Secondly, would people actually take the time to differentiate and do a brain scan? Where would you quantitatively draw the line as to this "level of brain personality mapping"? Thus, the grisly theoretical conclusion can be tossed out as quickly as im sure everyone wants to (including me!). Drawing the line at the birth point seems to make sense and protect the innocent.


    under assumption non-naturalism
    --you'd be perfectly right to make up any point within any person's life and say "thats when their soul enters!", and then arbitrarily make that "the point where abortion can only happen before".
    --It could be conception, a heartbeat, a brain wave, a first birthday, a communion, 100 years old.
    the conclusion is potentially just as grisly. Again, in practice, its not that grisly. Most religions believe its at conception or sometime during pregnancy.


    In conclusion: can anyone really justify the government taking a side based the assumption of metaphysics? would it be a violation of religious freedom? (whose religious assumption of 'the-soul-enters-at-this-point' would the law use?)

  8. #18
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think we should be able to abort people until the age of 6.
    Oh come on man! Dont limit yourself! Why stop at six?!

    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    This is going to sound really bad. But I have a hard time with people who think abortion is ever permissible. I have a hard time understanding them, and seeing them as anyone other than a killer. They might as well say "I think you should kill anyone in your way in line at WalMart. Sort of.

    People 100 years ago said "eh well, everyone's racist." And looking at it now, that's poor morality.

    One explanation I've heard is -- "Well morality is at the heart, and its just a matter of getting to the head." But I dunno...

    If you don't agree, don't worry about it. Just don't post. I just want to understand this all better.
    And on a serious note, and really it might not sound like it but im being serious. I respect your point of view and really will never have any reason to argue with you on it. But I would like to make this point.

    I dont see whats wrong with killing. Anyone or thing, old or young, small or strong. And just how people like you dont understand how people like me can feel that way, well Its the same way on this side of the fence. If anything, our new found "morality" against killing others is killing everyone. Soon enough our world wont have the resources to support the billions of lives on it cause people thought just cause they know right from wrong they can decide what is right from wrong. And thus destroying the entire cycle of natural evolution.
    SDMF

  9. #19
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    The abortion debate is over. Sorry, but if you live in the developed world, we're not going to go back in time. That's not how this works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    I dont see whats wrong with killing. Anyone or thing, old or young, small or strong.
    So what's your body count?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    None, but that doesnt change the fact that im not against it. Whats yours? Does your lack secure you in your opinion that its wrong?
    SDMF

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