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  1. #171
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What if they make good servants?
    Lol! This should be the reason to HAVE kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yeah, but we don't have to. We have abortion, and the burden of proof is on you to show why you should be allowed to tell others they're not allowed to have one.
    The crux of the issue is definition of human life, because once someone is an adult people can recognize it is wrong to kill them if they haven't done anything. If you had not murdered them, they would still be alive. Alone, egg and sperm do not eventually create human life, it is by our choice to have sex that they are. Once they have been, the result is human life in essential form because, like the innocent adult, if you do not do anything they will remain alive and thus should receive the same right.

    Basically, in my opinion, it comes down to taking responsibility for our ability to create human life. In my opinion, abortion is avoiding this responsibility by blurring the lines around the process of creating life. If it's so obvious, and we all know how it works, why are we even trying to say an embryo is not human? That's ridiculous to me. No, it doesnt look like a child or adult, it will one day though. If it makes it any easier, reflect personally on the fact that you were once such a meaningless clump of cells.

    It is not beneficial to the pro-abortion argument to approach this from the perspective of "rights"... that's what rights are, a choice. But we limit what choices can be made on the basis of how they affect others. That is why children are not allowed to drive cars, but when they are 16 they can earn that right. They still have to follow the rules of the road. Likewise, we have a choice to have sex, but I dont see why that makes us exempt from the responsibilities that come with it.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, that's why a cost/benefit analysis should be performed to see if abortion benefits society. My intuition tells me that abortion probably does benefit society, but I don't know that for sure.
    Yea, that's not in support of personal freedoms and choice. That is collectivism in the extreme. "Do it because it benefits society." But that is the basic truth of how the world works. SOMEBODY is going to make that judgment call based on whatever criteria they want, and it is either society as a whole that decides what they value (based upon very basic, primal principles of "like and dislike", common appraisals for most human beings) and what direction they want, or it is a minority of the population with power and influence over the direction of society that makes that decision and sets the trend. Society/the collective doesn't "decide' anything, it just reacts unintelligent, like a reflex that causes your arm to move away from a hot stove. Powerful thinking individuals provide intelligent direction for the rest of society. This dovetails nicely with my earlier points on controlling society, and that other thread about social control.

    Whether people like to think it or not, the individual is controlled and influenced by everyone else in society, and it is those with enough ability to think outside of it who raise themselves above the fray, and exercise influence as an individual upon the collective (i.e. politicians, corporate execs, bankers). The collective follows because the individuals it is comprised of don't have the will, the knowledge, or the ability to truly rise above collective intelligence and maintain their individual subsistence by impressing their view of reality upon the population at large. That is the social order of man.

    As it applies to abortion, it means that we can continue to argue and argue amongst ourselves about whether its good or bad, right or wrong, until those with power set the standard once and for all. There have been many groups in society who have succeeded in asserting that abortion is good and happy, but those groups haven't succeeded in influencing enough of the population. Once a critical mass of people are under the influence of such beliefs, the debate will meet a quiet demise. That will happen if someone comes and grants the population a new "pragmatic" perspective on the issue, by looking at the overall economic benefits (or not) to society, as Lat suggested.

  4. #174
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    I'm fine with abortion.

    Up until the fetus is sentient.

  5. #175
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    We all know where people stand on the extreme positions by now.

    But I'm curious. What do people think about the compromise position, allowing abortion in the case of rape, but not for consentual intercourse?
    See, I honestly don't know about the case of rape. I understand the side of people saying that they should atleast get to abort. I can deff see that reasoning. Eh, but still I can't agree with it. I know it makes me seem like a horrible person, I just cant. I could open up another whole can of worms here, but I wont unless someone wants to talk about it privatley.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  6. #176
    Fe, rusted. Poser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    Alone, egg and sperm do not eventually create human life, it is by our choice to have sex that they are. Once they have been, the result is human life in essential form because, like the innocent adult, if you do not do anything they will remain alive and thus should receive the same right.

    Basically, in my opinion, it comes down to taking responsibility for our ability to create human life.
    But the fetus isn't doing it alone. The mother still plays a vital role. A role that I believe should be her choice to continue or not.


  7. #177
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What if they make good servants?
    They probably wouldn't make good servants. They're probably more likely to be criminals or welfare recipients. It's not like abortionists are going into happy homes and snatching children from loving families.

    Then again, perhaps abortion will be partially responsible for failure of entitlement programs (like social security) in the future, since there won't be enough young people to pay for the old.

    I want a freaking cost/benefit analysis!
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    See, I honestly don't know about the case of rape. I understand the side of people saying that they should atleast get to abort. I can deff see that reasoning. Eh, but still I can't agree with it. I know it makes me seem like a horrible person, I just cant. I could open up another whole can of worms here, but I wont unless someone wants to talk about it privatley.
    Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.

  9. #179
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.
    Dog gone it, you stole the words out of my mouth. Pfft, meanie
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  10. #180
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    I know it makes me seem like a horrible person.
    Yes, it does. That's because you ARE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.
    I don't think it's *raising* the child that they're trying to avoid...

    Well, that does it. I have absolutely no respect left for either of you, whatsoever. You have *no* sense of justice according to my reckoning, and should be severely punished.

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