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  1. #161
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, that's why a cost/benefit analysis should be performed to see if abortion benefits society. My intuition tells me that abortion probably does benefit society, but I don't know that for sure.
    On a broader topic, why should benefit to society always be placed as a higher value than individual freedom? Doesn't this run into a number of clear problems with utilitarianism?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #162
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    We all know where people stand on the extreme positions by now.

    But I'm curious. What do people think about the compromise position, allowing abortion in the case of rape, but not for consentual intercourse?

  3. #163
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    On a broader topic, why should benefit to society always be placed as a higher value than individual freedom? Doesn't this run into a number of clear problems with utilitarianism?
    Who says that it is? And who says those are necessarily at odds with each other?

    P.S. I'm pretty utilitarian when it comes to crime and punishment.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    I really am not sure how else to explain this... as soon as conception occurs, it is my belief that another human life must be taken into account, so at that point intervention is essentially murder.
    Didn't we already debate this point? Many unanswered objections were levied against this conclusion.

  5. #165
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nynesneg View Post
    So you're saying all forms of hormonal birth control (ie the pill, shot, iud, patch) are unethical because all the necessary components are inside the woman together (sperm+egg), the environment is just altered so they die?

    Impressive, first guy I've met who actually likes condoms.
    Hmm, not quite. Some of these things prevent the creation of human life, others destroy it once it has already started.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes grayscale we're well aware of how the birds and the bees work and the fact that sex risks pregnancy, thanks.

    Sixth grade sex ed lessons aside, though, we're discussing whether or not people have the right to force other people to have babies once a pregnancy has occurred.

    Your position suggests implicitly that according to some arbitrary moral directive, sex should only happen for procreation. Why should having sex for recreation constitute a binding agreement to bear a child if neither participant wants one? I don't like the implication that I'm morally in the wrong if I'm having sex without the desire to produce offspring.
    My argument is that we know the risks but do not want to accept them when they occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I wonder if any of them have ever heard of modern medicine, contact lenses, polyester, etc.

    If it's your belief that unnatural = bad, then fine, but if you want to legislate that belief you need something more substantial than just your personal feeling that it's unnatural. You're talking about restricting other people's rights here!
    If someone has bad eyesight is that a result of an educated choice? Guess I will have to hop up on the next lady I see bend over, 'cause I just can't control myself!

    The key to understanding morality is intentions, until you are willing to hold people accountable to them then it will not make sense to you.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But I'm curious. What do people think about the compromise position, allowing abortion in the case of rape, but not for consentual intercourse?
    Absolutely not. This would unduly restrict a woman's right to control the use of her own body in all but a small minority of the cases.

  7. #167
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    Hmm, not quite. Some of these things prevent the creation of human life, others destroy it once it has already started.



    My argument is that we know the risks but do not want to accept them when they occur.
    Yeah, but we don't have to. We have abortion, and the burden of proof is on you to show why you should be allowed to tell others they're not allowed to have one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Who says that it is? And who says those are necessarily at odds with each other?

    P.S. I'm pretty utilitarian when it comes to crime and punishment.
    Defining abortion as a crime is arbitrary in the first place. Your statement that evaluation of abortion should be contingent upon its overall benefit to society suggests that you believe this to be of more importance than individual civil liberties, at least in the case of abortion. In this case the two values are, unfortunately, at odds with each other.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #168
    Senior Member nynesneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayscale
    as soon as conception occurs, it is my belief that another human life must be taken into account, so at that point intervention is essentially murder.
    The progestin (present in birth control pills) works to:
    - ...hinder the movement of sperm
    - inhibit the egg's ability to travel...
    - alter the uterine lining so a fertilized egg will likely not be able to implant into the uterine wall.
    (A fertilized egg would then be discharged...)

    Cough.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Absolutely not. This would unduly restrict a woman's right to control the use of her own body in all but a small minority of the cases.
    Pfft, who cares? I only care about how this effects ME. And I'm for abortion because I'd rather not have a bunch of unwanted kids running around.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Pfft, who cares? I only care about how this effects ME. And I'm for abortion because I'd rather not have a bunch of unwanted kids running around.
    What if they make good servants?

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