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  1. #131
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    How about the fact that evolution wasn't considering the problem of overpopulation when it developed the intense biological desire to mate for purposes of reproduction?

    People will always have sex based on powerful biological drives, and the emphasis we've placed on proper parenting through culture alone contradicts the biological drive to be having sex and reproducing all the time.

    What you're implicitly asking people to do is to stop having sex if they aren't in a position to raise children, which seems naive and rather idealistic.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #132
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    It is because of a father's biological and organic resources that he is able to work a job and put food on the table. You are right that any adult could do that, but what I think you are arguing here is dependency, whether that is on the child's biological parents or not.
    No, it's not dependency. It's non-transferrable dependency that I'm against as unreasonable. The mother can't move the child into a test tube, or another woman's womb, for instance. And THAT is unfair.

    And again, you fail to note the use of the word DIRECTLY. It's indirect because it goes through labor, into money, into food and shelter.

    You're mixing apples and oranges. It's INDIRECT use of resources versus DIRECT use of resources.

    I'm saying that the fetus has no right to directly tap the mother's biological resources against her will, irregardless of it's right to life, and that this constitutes trespassing if it's undesired.

  3. #133
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I don't think it's accurate to say that most women who got abortions would choose pregnancy if they had to do it again. They might regret it, but they might have regretted pregnancy more.
    Well I think most woman, if they had to do it over, would choose not to put themselves in the situation that GAVE them the baby.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  4. #134
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Well I think most woman, if they had to do it over, would choose not to put themselves in the situation that GAVE them the baby.
    I don't see how this strengthens the anti-abortion position. Obviously they had no way of knowing they'd get pregnant; otherwise they wouldn't have done it in the first place.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #135
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What you're implicitly asking people to do is to stop having sex if they aren't in a position to raise children, which seems naive and rather idealistic.
    I doubt it will ever happen, so I wouldn't call it naivety. The only expectation I have is for us to at least identify that unwanted pregnancy is not the problem but a symptom of it. Let's consider the circumstances that lead to most abortions and advise people in those circumstances to hold off on sex so as to not put them in a tough position later on. Actually, I think most people probably have a slight understanding of the risk they are taking but they choose to ignore it, and the advice of their parents who know what having a kid implies. Damn that teen rebellion, wonder where they learned that attitude from? Oops, I got preggers! where's the undo feature for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    No, it's not dependency. It's non-transferrable dependency that I'm against as unreasonable. The mother can't move the child into a test tube, or another woman's womb, for instance. And THAT is unfair.

    And again, you fail to note the use of the word DIRECTLY. It's indirect because it goes through labor, into money, into food and shelter.

    You're mixing apples and oranges. It's INDIRECT use of resources versus DIRECT use of resources.

    I'm saying that the fetus has no right to directly tap the mother's biological resources against her will, irregardless of it's right to life, and that this constitutes trespassing if it's undesired.
    I wouldn't call it unfair, but it is very inconvenient. And I know it is indirect, but I don't see why that makes a difference. I think most parents would even sacrifice their own life to save their children if necessary, how is that for direct use of resources?

    I know some people would agree with you though... some mothers do not want to breast feed for similar reasons. I think approaching parenting with a selfish attitude would makes it an uphill battle, though.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    It would not be self defense if you invited someone into your home and then beat them up for breaking and entering. Again, sex is usually consensual, so I am not seeing how the embryo is "invading" her.
    Sex can be done for recreation rather than procreation. Just because a woman has sex doesn't mean that she consented to rent her body out for nine months.

    It is a clump of cells, but so is an adult, no?
    Then would you argue that a carrot is a person? An adult has many qualities which are not present in a fetus.

    Embryo eventually grows into a human. the only reason this is even debated is because people dont consider things in their essential form.
    At best, it can be argued that a fetus is a potential person. But does it necessarily follow that they have the same rights as a full fledged person?
    Everyone is a potential pensioner. But we don't give everyone money until they actually become one.

  7. #137
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    carrots are people too ya'll
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    What? It should be common sence that if you have sex that your going to possibley have a baby. So to say "oh, I didnt give it permission to grow there" doesn't make sence.
    If you eat at at restaurant, there is the possibility that you will get food poisoning. But does that mean you consented to it?

  9. #139
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't see how this strengthens the anti-abortion position. Obviously they had no way of knowing they'd get pregnant; otherwise they wouldn't have done it in the first place.
    Exacally my point. If they had to redo it, they wouldnt be put in the situation to begin with. But if you want to talk about whether or not the person would give birth or abort if they had to choose, why not give birth if they already did the abortion thing? If it didn't work for them, why not try something different?
    Of coarse I realise they cannot, but if they're regretting the abortion, dont you think they're regretting the ABORTION, for whatever reason? So if they could do it again, why would they choose abortion if they regretted it?
    [sorry if that sounded confussing]
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  10. #140
    Senior Member nynesneg's Avatar
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    Just because a woman has sex doesn't mean that she consented to rent her body out for nine months.
    Yup. Simplest solution would be all females across the world to get the piece of plastic in their arm so they can't have kids for 3 years. 99.99% effective.


    The argument against abortion is interesting. While abortion may not be right, how is it morally any different than taking birth control drugs? BC hormones just make the uterus an environment where babies can't survive.

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