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  1. #111
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    First, why is it necessary that all human life has the same value and the same rights? Couldn't human beings in one stage be accorded different rights than those in another? Does a person have a right to have a limb amputated, or is that wrong because the limb contains "human life" in the form of cells?

    Second, why is the death seen as a "loss"? A loss of what, they haven't lived a life or had any meaningful experiences yet.
    If we are not going to give all humans the same freedom to life, then what criteria do you suppose we should use? As I said before, if anything it would be more appropriate to knock off the old and decrepit because they have already had the majority of their right to live. A fetus on the other hand has nearly limitless potential... and since we have such a hard time considering that human, let's just use children as an example--it's always considered tragic when someone young dies because "he had his whole life ahead of him".

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Lastly, why is it a matter of refusing accountability? It seems to me that getting an abortion might be some people's way of taking accountability, saying that they feel it's the best decision for everyone involved. Sex is an action that has consequences, and abotion is also an action with consequences.
    Who is it really the best decision for? Let's ask people who had an upbringing in poverty if they would have rather their parents killed them when they were a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Who are you to say that a person is allowed to take one action and accept that set of consequences, but to choose the other action and accept the consequences? Why should a person not be allowed to take an action that modifies the consequences of a previous action?
    Simple. Sex is [most often] voluntary. Once you conceive, the choice affects not only the mother but the human life inside of her. Once it is a child, would not CPS take the child away if the mother were harming it in some way? So now we're back to semantics of whether an embryo is comparable to a child, and you can refer to my previous argument about approaching this essentially rather than semantically.

  2. #112
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    My mom aborted her first child, the one right before me. This happened 20 years ago and she's just now able to forgive herself. There isn't a day that she regrets it. It could've very likely been myself that was aborted. I mean, you see how scary that is? That could've been me. I could've been nonexistant because of a lie. Because my mother lied to her parents about being pregnant and she went and had an abortion.
    She just revealed this to me about a month ago. It created alot of shame in her. If thats one thing that she tells me its that if I were to ever get pregnant, just to come to her and she wont be angry with me. That she'd rather me come to her then to abort. It caused alot of emotional and physical problems for her. She had an infection in her uterus, resulting constant bleeding and vomiting. She had to, once again, go to the hospital w/out her parents knowledge and pay for the damage done to her.
    Not only that, but your body, when your pregnant, sends hormones to all parts of your body to take care and feed the baby thats inside of you. When you take the baby out prematurely, those hormones are still running...but wait...there's no baby. That results in mental and emotional problems. Post-partum depression is all she gained from aborting.
    This...is something my mother doesn't take lightly. She did it and see's what it does.

    I hold strong to that belief that every fetus is a being. Some call it a parasite, but I cannot see how you'd call it that.
    Parasite:
    -an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host

    -leech: a follower who hangs around a host (without benefit to the host) in hope of gain or advantage

    Fetus
    -an unborn vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature [human].

    Just as well, a fetus is not apart of a woman. Its inside the woman. In most cases, the fetus isn't even the same sex as the mother and can have a completely different blood type than the mother. In that case, it is NOT the mother. So you cannot say the woman has a right over her body in this case, because the baby is NOT her body. Its a completely different being.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  3. #113
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    Sorry I missed this post earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    However, I ultimately believe the idea that you can abort should not fall on justification based on consequence of where this child might end up.
    For once we agree. As I cited Aristotle: "And life: since, even if no other good were the result of life, it is desirable in itself."

    A fetus not developing into a human can be the result of god's will to miscarriages, or human will deciding that the time is not right.
    However there is a significant difference between God's will and human will. God after all is the author of all life, while humans are not. For humans to determine the "time is not right" is essentially man playing god.


    I think that's enough for me today. Hopefully later I'll get back to Athenian's arguments earlier.

  4. #114
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    This...is something my mother doesn't take lightly. She did it and see's what it does.
    Another commonly overlooked aspect to this... have never heard of a mother who was glad to have an abortion. Have heard plenty of stories of those who deeply regret it, or those who considered it and were glad they didn't in the end.

    Not to focus on their mistakes, but let's at least learn from them ya know?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    However, I ultimately believe the idea that you can abort should not fall on justification based on consequence of where this child might end up...

    Unfortunately it appears that you apply the label "human life" to multicellular organisms within a human. Perhaps you should shed a tear the next time a cancerous growth is surgically removed from a human.
    Why not? The law recognizes intent to commit. This is the problem with having this mindset of isolating the issue to a snapshot in time, you end up with ridiculous arguments like equating cancer to a fetus. Without the element of time, a person would not be seen as guilty for standing over someone's sleeping body with a knife because they haven't actually stabbed them yet.

  5. #115
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    Another commonly overlooked aspect to this... have never heard of a mother who was glad to have an abortion. Have heard plenty of stories of those who deeply regret it, or those who considered it and were glad they didn't in the end.

    Not to focus on their mistakes, but let's at least learn from them ya know?
    Agree completely. I've met girl after girl who've regreted the abortion. I've had 2 of my best friends get abortions and gah, it really hurt them afterwards. They regreted it so much. I've never met a woman who was glad she got an abortion. Am I saying they aren't out there? No...but I think if you really get down to it. Woman regret it alot of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  6. #116
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    yeah plus the aborted fetus goes straight to hell and i hear that's not so good
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #117
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well it's required if wish to have a state based upon concepts of justice - which includes the defense of life on an objective basis. Otherwise you end up with regimes like the Nuremberg Laws, where accidental(subjective) elements become the main factor in determining your life's value.
    Okay, so what you're saying is that you have trouble conceiving of an objective defintion of human life that protects everyone which wouldn't also include fetuses?

    Hmm... I don't know. On one hand, I can see value in that for all the living people.

    On the other, it really does feel like a stretch to call something an independent "life" if it's still dependent on the host to survive. I suppose it depends on how you define life.

    I personally would prefer to define human life as something that could be sustained without directly drawing on the biological/organic resources of another human being. Essentially, as long as the baby is a dependent process within the parent's body, it's more akin to a parasite, tumor, or defective organ within the body of the parent than it is to independent human life.

    Naturally, some would not share my definition of life. That's understandable, of course. Some people like to be more inclusive.

    I suppose the issue should be revisited if it ever becomes possible to remove the fetus from the parent's womb and grow it in an artifical tube, though, or even to grow a fetus entirely within one.

  8. #118
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Just as well, a fetus is not apart of a woman. Its inside the woman. In most cases, the fetus isn't even the same sex as the mother and can have a completely different blood type than the mother. In that case, it is NOT the mother. So you cannot say the woman has a right over her body in this case, because the baby is NOT her body. Its a completely different being.
    There seems to be an element of injustice in this viewpoint that I just can't accept, though. I find it difficult to respect people who feel this way (as they must feel about me), though I'm trying.

    It seems like you're admitting that there are definitely negative consequences for abortion. Which is one reason I think it should be an option, though not one to take lightly. Because honestly, it DOES have consequences. It seems unfair, somehow, to take it off the table completely despite all of what's involved in pregnancy.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Okay, so what you're saying is that you have trouble conceiving of an objective defintion of human life that protects everyone which wouldn't also include fetuses?
    It's not really objective when you arbitrarily exclude some people from the category of humanity or human life, especially on merely accidental conditions.

    Hmm... I don't know. On one hand, I can see value in that for all the living people.

    On the other, it really does feel like a stretch to call something an independent "life" if it's still dependent on the host to survive. I suppose it depends on how you define life.
    Well go by John Macmurrary's simple definition: "We are not organisms, but persons."

    I personally would prefer to define human life as something that could be sustained without directly drawing on the biological/organic resources of another human being. Essentially, as long as the baby is a dependent process within the parent's body, it's more akin to a parasite, tumor, or defective organ within the body of the parent than it is to independent human life.
    The wholeness of human personhood cannot be reduced to biological categories, and although an essential dimension it's still a subordinate one in regards to personhood.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I personally would prefer to define human life as something that could be sustained without directly drawing on the biological/organic resources of another human being.
    so the vast majority of adolescents would not fall into this definition of human life. without adults they would not have a means to survive.

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