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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    If a mother has a child, along this line of thinking, why shouldnt she be able to kill the child?
    Because an alternative exist. The child can simply be given to someone else with minimal effort.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    What's good is in the eye of the beholder. Any founder of a country should know this. The law should allow us to make decisions like this based on what WE consider good or bad. It's our right to exercise what we see as morally good in my opinion (as long as it isn't crazy stuff like ritual killings and sacrifice, you know what I mean).

    As I said, what's the issue? If you don't believe it, don't practice it. Your belief won't influence anyone else's, if someone is pro abortion then they frankly won't care about your ethical system. So I don't see any purpose to preaching these viewpoints.

    The most rational decision to make would be to allow the woman to choose, and that's final. You (the reader) are irrational if you think otherwise in my opinion.
    You fail to understand that any society cannot exist unless there's a common practical belief in certain truths. How can you have a democratic society without a common belief in freedom, justice, law, and that they are held to be objectively and unshakeably true? The answer is you can't. We can take this further and argue how you can have a democratic society that doesn't have common respect for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? Answer is, you can't.

    Tocquveille noted much about the common temptations in democracies to declare that since all beliefs have equal legal right, that must mean all beliefs are equally morally right.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post

    The most rational decision to make would be to allow the woman to choose, and that's final.
    We make judgment calls about everything else, especially in saying that killing is wrong. We limit free speech by saying that you can't slander people and lie, for which you can be prosecuted. Abortion is no different. It is subject to society's value system just like everything else. The question is does society value the life of an unborn child. Apparently that answer is no. Eventually the question will be what human life does have value, and that is the point where order breaks down.

    People's behavior and thinking must be limited and constrained to support a functional world, lest their minds wander and manifest all manner of destructive behavior. I will not compare individual people to animals as say a communist or Darwinist would (or like how I'd compare collective intelligence to animal intelligence), but I will compare them to children in that they have infinite ability to create what they want in the world with their free will, but it is up to those who hold power over them to limit their behavior and teach them not to just do whatever they can think of. It is not so that they can't express their free will, it's so that they don't harm themselves and others. A child is not mature enough to make such decisions on his/her own, they need guidance and limitations.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Right. Because abstinence education works, right guys? At least in my state we have a wonderful program for impoverished women which grants them free birth control and basic sexual health services. This is incredibly smart of the state, as I'm sure it decreases the resulting child welfare costs.
    So money is more important than human life?

  5. #95
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    What I meant with my statement is that the woman is in power of making the choice, thus she is the "fittest to survive". It doesn't make it any right or fair but life is not fair.
    Ah, my appologize. I don't know why I thought you were talking about the baby...
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Because upon birth the child is given rights as a citizen. Don't ask me why, it just is. However, you seem to have not read the idea I posted about infant =! fetus

    Right. Because abstinence education works, right guys? At least in my state we have a wonderful program for impoverished women which grants them free birth control and basic sexual health services. This is incredibly smart of the state, as I'm sure it decreases the resulting child welfare costs.
    This is why I find the pro-abortion argument ironic in the sense that it focuses on definition, ie, "calling it what it is" ...when we are not willing to identify the real problem as accidental pregnancy and how to avoid it.

    Our definition of embryo, fetus, baby, infant, whatever are all just that--our labels--so we cant manipulate those to determine if it is right to what boils down to fundamentally snuffing out a human life, albeit one that is not yet fully actualized. one could say i am doing the same with my definition of what is "life" and what isnt, but I am not. Bacteria is alive and I kill some every day when I use mouthwash, but it is not human life. We kill fully matured animals for food, but they are not human.

    Since the rest is semantics, we have to discuss this qualitatively... and in that sense if you want to debunk this argument you would need to somehow show how a human embryo is not human in nature.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    I was against abortion for a really long time. From a strong ethical stand point where I thought it an act of murder.

    But the more I thought about it and the more I understood it, I realized that it ultimately comes down to one's values and decisions. Who are we to decide if a person should be able to have an abortion or not? They should know the consequences.

    I would never ever get an abortion (if I could child-bear). I still find it an act of ethical violence and hostility. But what's greater is the individuality and trust we must give to those in the situation, and that we must pray that they'll have the integrity and respect to make the right choice (the right choice not necessarily being not getting the abortion.)
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  8. #98
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You fail to understand that any society cannot exist unless there's a common practical belief in certain truths. How can you have a democratic society without a common belief in freedom, justice, law, and that that they held to be objectively and unshakeably true? The answer is you can't. We can't take this further and argue how you can have a democratic society that doesn't have common respect for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?
    Well we are divided as a society already when it comes to certain beliefs. The abortion issue will NEVER be objectively and unshakeably true, because it's based on opinion. As I've been saying, the most rational decision is for people to be able to have their opinions and live freely. This is why we have a freedom of religion and political belief. This is also why we should have a freedom to believe whether abortion is "right" or not, and for the people who think it's "right" to be able to get them and for those who think it's not "right" to be able to choose to not get one. Simple as that.

    And I'm sure it's easy to draw from my posts here that I don't consider a fetus a "person" until it's done growing. This again adds to my point about opinion, and what someone considers life to respect.

    And Risen, I frankly don't even understand what your post is trying to say.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    so we cant manipulate those to determine if it is right to what boils down to fundamentally snuffing out a human life, albeit one that is not yet fully
    Killing human life is not wrong if it's done for a reason. For example, self defense.

  10. #100
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So money is more important than human life?
    No, I factored the "smart" part into their decision as a telling reason for why they would ever decide to allow impoverished women the right to basic sexual health services. In this situation, human life and the financial balance of the state's budget works hand in hand.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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