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  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    We are the result of the interaction between genetics and environment over time.

    The concept of "who" is simply communicating about the false sense of indivduality and meaning we all have based on small facts that distinguish us, and our natural tendency to see ourselves, others, and the world as "special" or "meaningful" due to said small facts.

    (Since you didn't post the question in the NF Idyllic, I wanted to make sure my answer was NT-proof).

  2. #12
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Sounds like something a person would say, to assuage their guilty conscience.

    To me, thought is energy.
    That energy will eventually out itself in some shape or form.
    So while someone might fool themselves into thinking they didn't "act" upon a thought, trust me, they will.
    They just won't realize it has manifested itself, in a different form.

    The subconscious is an interesting beast: more powerful than the conscious could ever wish to be.
    For me it is not a case of thought OR action.
    They do not oppose.
    They are one.

    That is what defines me.
    That's a really interesting way of thinking of things that never occurred to me.

    A question for you, so I know that I completely get what you're saying: Are you saying that every thought will eventually become an action, because even if you have a thought that you do not directly act on, its presence will still subconsciously effect your actions later on?

    If I got it right, then one more question: Which person is the "better" person here: a) A person who has thoughts of the urge to murder, but these thoughts actually manifest themselves subconsciously as good actions, or b) A person who never has a murderous thought, but overall produces subconscious actions through his thoughts that are not as "good" as person A's?
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

  3. #13
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    we are defined only by a conception and we have no basis to believe ourselves more nor less than that. i am defined by how happy i am or sad or disgruntled etc...which is not any different than being defined by material objects like cars or money. no different than being defined by enlightenment or darkness or shadowy aspects of our true nature. it's all relative and always changing, so to say someone is bad or good because they commit horrible acts is not what defines them. to say someone is fun and exciting because they own a bmw is ludicrous, or to say the homeless person is defined by their lack is absurd.

  4. #14
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    But, then, isn't it a far bigger accomplishment for one to go against one's nature in order to do good, than to simply do the good that one feels like doing? If you feel like doing good it's easy, if you don't feel like it, it isn't.
    Just a thought.
    This is an interesting point.

    It seems analogous to this situation:
    Person A is born a genius at math and makes it to the top of some big industry. Person B is born average at Math, but through hard work and dedication makes it to the same place that person A does. Which is smarter?

    Or this situation would probably apply better:
    Person A wants to murder others, but through hard mental work and willpower becomes a leading peacemaker and humanitarian. Person B has never had the urge to murder, but is also a leading peacemaker and humanitarian.

    Do person A's actions and will to be "good" make him better than person B, who is at the same level as person A but had to do much less work to accomplish it? Should person B be considered a lesser individual because he did less with what he had than person A did? Or should person A have been expected to change who he was, since who his previous thoughts were unfit for society?

    Sorry, just a bunch of ramblings that your post provoked :P. No real point to that post haha.
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

  5. #15
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    We are the result of the interaction between genetics and environment over time.

    The concept of "who" is simply communicating about the false sense of indivduality and meaning we all have based on small facts that distinguish us, and our natural tendency to see ourselves, others, and the world as "special" or "meaningful" due to said small facts.

    (Since you didn't post the question in the NF Idyllic, I wanted to make sure my answer was NT-proof).
    Almost everything can be reduced, but sometimes I don't find that reduction is a good thing. For example, psychology could be reduced to biology which could be reduced to chemistry etc all the way down to math, but would it really help us to think about psychology in terms of math?

    To me it seems like you're saying that who we are can be reduced to chemicals/genetics and our atmosphere, but is it beneficial to study the sense of who we are in this way? In order to best apply the information from talking about something like this to ourselves, I think that it would be best to discuss it in terms of individuality and upper-level thought-action processes.

    Sorry if I didn't get what you meant exactly, feel free to correct me if I got it wrong :P
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

  6. #16
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    defining oneself is about beating others, ego wars? i am sadder than you better at math richer more enlightened more socially adept better athlete knitter thinker shopper groomer parent the list goes on and on and this is NOT a definition of who any of us is

  7. #17
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post
    defining oneself is about beating others, ego wars? i am sadder than you better at math richer more enlightened more socially adept better athlete knitter thinker shopper groomer parent the list goes on and on and this is NOT a definition of who any of us is
    What are you responding to here?

    If it was in response to my reply to Star W, then that was sort of off-topic. I was more getting into what makes someone a good vs bad person, instead of what defines them. That post was mostly ramblings that I felt like I needed to type out.
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenomite View Post
    To me it seems like you're saying that who we are can be reduced to chemicals/genetics and our atmosphere, but is it beneficial to study the sense of who we are in this way? In order to best apply the information from talking about something like this to ourselves, I think that it would be best to discuss it in terms of individuality and upper-level thought-action processes.

    Sorry if I didn't get what you meant exactly, feel free to correct me if I got it wrong :P
    All that I really mean is that "who we are," is a concept we've invented because it gives us a sense of uniqueness and meaning, and can't necessarily be defined in any real way, because it's all in our heads. It's not much different than the belief in a soul.

    If you insist on an answer, though, I'd say we're defined by several things:

    1. Race, gender, and other genetic influences.

    2. Temperament/personality.

    3. Upbringing, childhood experiences, larger socio-cultural influences.

    4. Achievements, experience, and knowledge.

    5. Areas of Interest.

    Take all of these things together, and you essentially get our sense of "who we are."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenomite View Post
    A question for you, so I know that I completely get what you're saying: Are you saying that every thought will eventually become an action, because even if you have a thought that you do not directly act on, its presence will still subconsciously effect your actions later on?
    Correct.

    If I got it right, then one more question: Which person is the "better" person here: a) A person who has thoughts of the urge to murder, but these thoughts actually manifest themselves subconsciously as good actions, or b) A person who never has a murderous thought, but overall produces subconscious actions through his thoughts that are not as "good" as person A's?
    I don't know you at all, but that question is absolute bullshit.
    And if you don't why it's bullshit, that's even worse.

  10. #20
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I don't know you at all, but that question is absolute bullshit.
    And if you don't why it's bullshit, that's even worse.
    I'm guessing that you think it's "bullshit" because you think that thoughts and actions are the same, making that question irrelevant? Can't think of anything else that would be blatantly obvious.

    If not, then I guess I'm "even worse" . At any rate, something more constructive would help.
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

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