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  1. #51
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    There are certain things that Christian law has kept from the original 613 Jewish commandments, and certain ones that they want.

    There are many commandments that explicitly concern moral rectitude, but also many that do not:



    Christians have broken many of these commandments.

    Did Jesus take the time to revoke all these rules specifically? Can someone explain why some rules that don't have distinct moral value still be considered so important while so many aren't?
    Those are not commandments for Christians.
    Lord Jesus revoked them.

    In a Christian Church, there is only two commandments.
    Love God more than yourself.
    Love the other as much as yourself.

    It is only one commandment.
    If you love the other as much as you love yourself, it follows you love God more.

    Einstein said: God does not throw dice.
    Jesus said: God has many mansions.

    It is one statement.

    Is the moon there when you do not look?
    Not for you.

  2. #52
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Does this mean you're a Jehovah's Witness?
    hmm.. do I get extra points if I am?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #53
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Because religion is a reflection of what society wishes.

  4. #54
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Those are not commandments for Christians.
    Lord Jesus revoked them.

    In a Christian Church, there is only two commandments.
    Love God more than yourself.
    Love the other as much as yourself.

    It is only one commandment.
    If you love the other as much as you love yourself, it follows you love God more.

    Einstein said: God does not throw dice.
    Jesus said: God has many mansions.

    It is one statement.

    Is the moon there when you do not look?
    Not for you.
    Which is all well and good, but how would you deal with this scripture:

    Matthew 5:17-20 (Jesus speaking)
    17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #55
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Which is all well and good, but how would you deal with this scripture:

    Matthew 5:17-20 (Jesus speaking)
    17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    You're taking the verse out of context. This mistake is common even among Christians who do not study The Word. We must look at Matthew 5:17-20 in light of every single other verse in The Word. The whole Bible is inspired by God:

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

    Jesus Christ stands for God's instruction as well as the disciples - not only what He taught when with us in the flesh. In fact, Jesus Christ IS The Word:

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    If we look at the message of the Bible in it's entirety, we will discover we are no longer bound by, or slaves to the law. In other words, we are no longer condemned if we cannot fulfill the entire law (an achievement only Jesus Christ can claim). We are called to rise above legalism and follow Christ with a changed heart through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Those who read The Word without the endowment of the Holy Spirit will not fully comprehend what they're reading. The Bible cannot be treated as a regular text. It is supernatural in nature:

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active...

    1 Corinthians 2:10-14 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a persons thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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  6. #56
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    You're taking the verse out of context.
    Actually, I was more curious to see how it would be answered... as it is a common rebuttal to that sort of statement... regardless of whatever my own personal stance happens to be.

    This mistake is common even among Christians who do not study The Word. We must look at Matthew 5:17-20 in light of every single other verse in The Word. The whole Bible is inspired by God:

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
    Um, dude, now YOU are taking the Bible out of context... how ironic.

    That verse was written by Paul before the New Testament even existed. It's doubtful that even the Gospels were written at that point.

    That verse realistically can only apply to the Old Testament scriptures. it only applies to the New Testament if you start making assumptions about which words are God's and which aren't.

    Please, let's be consistent.

    Jesus Christ stands for God's instruction as well as the disciples - not only what He taught when with us in the flesh. In fact, Jesus Christ IS The Word:

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    If we look at the message of the Bible in it's entirety, we will discover we are no longer bound by, or slaves to the law. In other words, we are no longer condemned if we cannot fulfill the entire law (an achievement only Jesus Christ can claim). We are called to rise above legalism and follow Christ with a changed heart through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Those who read The Word without the endowment of the Holy Spirit will not fully comprehend what they're reading. The Bible cannot be treated as a regular text. It is supernatural in nature:

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active...

    1 Corinthians 2:10-14 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a persons thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    Okay, this just veered out of the realm of an intellectual assessment of the Bible and into personal beliefs.

    We can't possibly discuss what a particular verse means if you already have decided for yourself what it must mean because you have chosen to make certain assumptions about it... then basically also make the case that "if you don't understand the Bible the way I do, you must not know God or be a believer, which is why you disagree with me."

    As I said above, you can't use quotes from the New Testament to discuss a book that did not exist at the time the quotes were written. Not in this style of discussion. Now, if you are saying, "I am a proponent of this particular denomination, and we believe yada yada yada, and so hence this verse must mean this, due to our denom's assumptions," then certainly.

    But no, not here.

    Your arguments describe your personal beliefs, but they aren't anything anyone can engage. I'm also seeing that you never really answered my rebuttal... even if it was a basic level challenge on my part, to see what the answer would be.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #57
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    They contribute to human happiness, in every culture that's known to exist, yet aren't inborn?

    One relatively primitive region of the brain has indeed been observed making us feel good about making others happy (as long as they're perceived as deserving it and we haven't yet been conditioned to class them as part of the 'out-group') and bad about making them unhappy. Other animal species have this instinct too.

    It's in competition with other instincts of course, the desires for food, sex, security and revenge being a few that can over-ride the desire not to cause distress depending on the circumstances and relative strengths of these desires at the time. It's one thing to suggest this 'conscience' is a gift from God, but it's another to ignore all the evidence that it's something we're born with.

    My point was merely that morality, at least, if we're talking strictly about the 'Golden Rule' aspect of morality, which we probably are as lane777 was talking about the precepts that atheists tend to follow, is indeed inborn. Most Christians I know do believe that it's inborn as well, so it wasn't even a theistic vs. atheistic point.
    Genesis 8:19-21 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out by families from the ark. And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of mans heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done."

    Any good that comes from man is not due to instinct. Because of God's grace, he chooses to restrain much of the evil in man. There are many examples in The Word of God doing this very thing, possibly the most well known instance is when God placed a hedge of protection around Job to keep Satan from taking his life.

    No, I was not referring to The Golden Rule. My morals are based on the teachings of The Word. Anyways, the video below does a good job of explaining my stance.

    All Men Are Born Evil
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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  8. #58
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Um, dude, now YOU are taking the Bible out of context... how ironic.

    That verse was written by Paul before the New Testament even existed. It's doubtful that even the Gospels were written at that point.

    That verse realistically can only apply to the Old Testament scriptures. it only applies to the New Testament if you start making assumptions about which words are God's and which aren't.

    Please, let's be consistent.
    The point you're making is not relevant. It's not necessary for the New Testament books to exist prior to Paul's writing of Timothy to make it applicable to the whole Bible. The fact that God willed the New Testament books to end up in the Bible makes it His word.

    Okay, this just veered out of the realm of an intellectual assessment of the Bible...
    That's part of the point I was trying to make with the verses I provided: The Bible cannot be understood solely on intellectual grounds.

    and into personal beliefs.
    I thought the point of this thread was to gain insight into a Christian's beliefs, not debate them.

    We can't possibly discuss what a particular verse means if you already have decided for yourself what it must mean because you have chosen to make certain assumptions about it... then basically also make the case that "if you don't understand the Bible the way I do, you must not know God or be a believer, which is why you disagree with me."
    Again, I did not post with the intent to debate. I was simply pointing out that you will have a different take on the scripture than a Christian will since a non believer will not have the Holy Spirit to give them understanding of it. Christian's view the scriptures with different eyes... it's useless to argue with any Christian for this reason. I was only trying to keep a debate from happening here and discouraging you from debating from Christians in the future - to spare you the frustration; Christian views will seem very illogical to the unbeliever.

    Your arguments describe your personal beliefs, but they aren't anything anyone can engage. I'm also seeing that you never really answered my rebuttal... even if it was a basic level challenge on my part, to see what the answer would be.
    I have. My point was this: you cannot understand the scripture properly without the Holy Spirit.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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  9. #59
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    This guy is psycho. Sorry dude. I will gladly share the thoughts that I've had in the last hour with anyone, including random strangers. 18-month old babies are evil?! Holy hell brother. Psycho. This shit pisses me off. And this this nut bar will go forth and have 25 "evil" children, only to beat them with a Bible(or rod, or whatever he can get his filthy hands on) at 18-months old, because they were reaching for his shiny Bulova that he paid for with the "faithful's" money. Makes. Me. Sick.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  10. #60
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    Christian views will seem very illogical to the unbeliever.
    Yeah, I think there's a reason for that...

    :crazy:

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