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  1. #11
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Yes please. I'm kind of slow.
    I'm not too clear on what exactly you're asking, but I'll take a stab Most of secular society, holds the view that morals are inborn. Morals however, originate from God (or from within religion, as some might put it) - which is the meaning of Romans 7:7 (Atheists chose to adopt some of these practices simply because of their practical application; many Biblical proverbs/precepts contribute to happiness.)
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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  2. #12
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    I'm not too clear on what exactly you're asking, but I'll take a stab Most of secular society, holds the view that morals are inborn. Morals however, originate from God (or from within religion, as some might put it) - which is the meaning of Romans 7:7 (Atheists chose to adopt some of these practices simply because of their practical application; many Biblical proverbs/precepts contribute to happiness.)
    So the idea is that Romans (or whoever said this) says doing the mitzvah is not essential to be a virtuous person but he gained a greater understanding of sin by studying them?

    Okay, that makes sense -- but it still doesn't really answer my question. Despite this, some Jewish law is still considered a part of being a good Christian while others are not. I realize which ones these are vary by Christian sects, but how do they choose?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So the idea is that Romans (or whoever said this) says doing the mitzvah is not essential to be a virtuous person but he gained a greater understanding of sin by studying them?

    Okay, that makes sense -- but it still doesn't really answer my question. Despite this, some Jewish law is still considered a part of being a good Christian while others are not. I realize which ones these are vary by Christian sects, but how do they choose?
    cultural prejudice

    that's why you'll have a completely different experience in a Roman Catholic vs. a conservative Free Will Baptist vs. a liberal Methodist church.

  4. #14
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Some of the laws were purely pragmatic (ex. before we understood about bacteria, not eating hooved animals was a survival and health win) so some of them are outgrow-able (from the Christian's perspective, not the Jew's perspective).

    And like they said, moral laws are not the same as the other laws.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  5. #15
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So the idea is that Romans (or whoever said this) says doing the mitzvah is not essential to be a virtuous person but he gained a greater understanding of sin by studying them?

    Okay, that makes sense -- but it still doesn't really answer my question. Despite this, some Jewish law is still considered a part of being a good Christian while others are not. I realize which ones these are vary by Christian sects, but how do they choose?
    We do not choose. We're following the instruction of the New Testament. What Jewish law do we follow that you're referring to?
    Last edited by lane777; 10-24-2009 at 07:21 PM.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    We do not choose. We're following the instruction of the New Testament. What Jewish law do we follow that you're referring to?
    Apparently Haphazard is aware of the old Christian men walking around the grocery store telling you that if you don't have that tattoo removed that you'll be going to hell, and the like.

    It's obvious that certain Christian churches pick and choose.

    That's partly why some are rabidly homophobic and claim it's an intrinsic part of the Christian faith others are more accepting.

  7. #17
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    We do not choose. We're following the instruction of the New Testament. What Jewish law do we follow that you're referring to?
    To be fruitful and multiply

    Not to commit sodomy with a male

    Not to have intercourse with a beast

    That the violator (of an unbetrothed virgin) shall marry her (this used to be law in some places, is generally not considered in modern Western societies)

    Not to practice nachesh (doing things based on signs and portents; using charms and incantations)

    Not to consult ovoth (ghosts)



    Not all Christians follow all of these rules but some choose to, and I don't get how that decision was made, by picking these ones and forgoing the others.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #18
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Apparently Haphazard is aware of the old Christian men walking around the grocery store telling you that if you don't have that tattoo removed that you'll be going to hell, and the like.

    It's obvious that certain Christian churches pick and choose.

    That's partly why some are rabidly homophobic and claim it's an intrinsic part of the Christian faith others are more accepting.
    I was referring to the true Christian. This (the bolded) is not applicable for today's Christian according to the New Testament.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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  9. #19
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Apparently Haphazard is aware of the old Christian men walking around the grocery store telling you that if you don't have that tattoo removed that you'll be going to hell, and the like.

    It's obvious that certain Christian churches pick and choose.

    That's partly why some are rabidly homophobic and claim it's an intrinsic part of the Christian faith others are more accepting.
    It's not picking and choosing so much as (a) taking the Bible literally (a decision I respect but do not subscribe to) or (b) trying to read the meaning, which of course, is impossible to do "correctly."

    A good example of why I don't advocate taking the Bible literally, but rather contextually (which does not mean not seriously): "Turn the other cheek" has a completely unexpected meaning:
    At the time of Jesus, striking someone deemed to be of a lower class with the back of the hand was used to assert authority and dominance.[2] If the persecuted person "turned the other cheek," the discipliner was faced with a dilemma. The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed.[3] The other alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. Thus, by turning the other cheek the persecuted was in effect demanding equality. By handing over one's cloak in addition to one's tunic, the debtor has essentially given the shirt off their back, a situation directly forbidden by Jewish Law as stated in Deuteronomy 24: 10-13:

    When you make your neighbor a loan of any sort, you shall not enter his house to take his pledge. You shall remain outside, and the man to whom you make the loan shall bring the pledge out to you. If he is a poor man, you shall not sleep with his pledge. When the sun goes down you shall surely return the pledge to him, that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it will be righteousness for you before the LORD your God.

    By giving the lender the cloak as well the debtor was reduced to nakedness. Public nudity was viewed as bringing shame on the viewer, not the naked, as evidenced in Genesis 9: 20-27:

    Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine, and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it upon both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness.

    The succeeding verse from the Sermon on the Mount can similarly be seen as a method for making the oppressor break the law. The commonly invoked Roman law of Angaria allowed the Roman authorities to demand that inhabitants of occupied territories carry messages and equipment the distance of one mile post, but prohibited forcing an individual to go further than a single mile, at the risk of suffering disciplinary actions.[4] In this example, the nonviolent interpretation sees Jesus as placing criticism on an unjust and hated Roman law as well as clarifying the teaching to extend beyond Jewish law.[5] As a side effect this may also have afforded the early followers a longer time to missionary to the soldier and or cause the soldier not to seek followers of Jesus to carry his equipment in the future so as not to be bothered with their proselytizing.
    -Wikipedia
    But IME being raised in a church which loudly proclaimed "we welcome all persons who seek to live in faith, regardless of age, race, gender or sexual orientation," the liberal churches are often a group of people who like the idea of the faith but don't want to learn anything about it, of if they do, they bend the Bible to their preconceived beliefs. I learned about the turn the other cheek thing in a conservative church, because I found that there's a lack of intellectual integrity in a lot of liberal churches (not all).

    I've yet to see an intellectually grounded (religious) reason for seeing homosexual marriage as a moral option (though I will heartily defend their marriage rights in the public arena, because I don't believe imposing Christian morals upon individuals in a democratic society, I stick with secular humanist ethics for my political choices). And of course the only Christian evaluation of homosexuality is that the act is a sin, not the individual who is inclined to be attracted that way--just like nonmarried heterosexual individuals would be sinful to act in a sexual manner.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #20
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    also, pretty sure there's no verse about tattoos, it was just people interpreting "body as a temple" in legalistic ways.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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