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Aren't we all racists?

Aren't we all racists?

  • Yes, in a way.

    Votes: 17 25.0%
  • No way.

    Votes: 16 23.5%
  • Prejudiced, but not racist.

    Votes: 35 51.5%

  • Total voters
    68

Charmed Justice

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I disagree. Dialect, apparel, cars, and mannerisms among other things are all indicative of social class. All of these are readily available for scrutiny in social situations. Your anecdote is contradictory because the quality of the restaurant is also apparent.
Much more difficult to tie together and conclude than the obvious--unless someone is "racially" ambiguous. How do you really determine a lower middle class person from an upper middle class person?

If someone was born into wealth, they may be easy to spot, but the upwardly mobile are not so easy to detect. Many people were born into lower classes and made it as adults. Their mannerisms and style of speech don't suddenly change with an increase to the bank account.
 

Charmed Justice

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We live in 2009, you were never a slave were you.
How is this comment relevant?

I have some statistics taken from the US census.

The Problem – Why Visible Men | The Success Network for Black Boys & Men - Visible Men


Disparate Educational Opportunities

* Eighty-six percent of Black fourth graders cannot read at grade level while, 83 percent of Latino and 58 percent of White fourth graders cannot read at grade level..............
Ok. What do these statistics mean to you?
 

Charmed Justice

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I think you're right that it seems to come from blacks more often than anyone else. I'm all for racial equality and all, but "be proud of your race" is simply the wrong way to go about it--we need to teach children to ignore race entirely if we really want to see any progress. Drawing attention to such meaningless differences in the name of "celebrating diversity" only accomplishes just that--drawing unnecessary attention to meaningless demographic differences.
Ignore race? I'm getting your ideal, but it doesn't really make sense to me. How do you teach someone to ignore race? Why would you want anyone to ignore race when it is still a real issue? How do you solve problems by ignoring them?

If we want future generations to stop thinking of race as a big deal, we need to stop teaching them that it is.
So you don't think that race is a big deal? The problem is not individuals recognizing race, the problem of racism is that it's institutionalized. It is for that reason, and that reason alone, that there are pride movements in the first place. Pride movements are simply attempting to counter the institutionalization of racism, and the centuries of effects that are still impacting millions. How does covering your eyes prevent you from getting shot up over 30x's by police officers ,on your wedding day, as you pull out your wallet?

*The typical white family has eleven times the net worth of the typical black family, and eight times the net worth of the typical Latino family, thanks to past and present barriers to wealth accumulation, income and equal housing (3)
*Research suggests that the children of black middle class professionals are more likely to move downward on the class ladder than to move up, and far more likely to move downward than similarly-situated whites (17).

*White families with incomes below the poverty line are more likely to own their own home than black households with incomes that are 2-3 times higher (18). Likewise, white households with incomes below $15,000 annually (and as low as $7500), actually have a greater average net worth than black households with incomes as high as $60,000 per year (19)

*In the middle class, whites have 5.2 times more net worth, on average, than blacks (nearly $60,000 as opposed to less than $12,000), and among the wealthiest fifth of income earners, whites average 3.2 times the net worth, of blacks ($208,000 compared to $65,000). In other words, typical members of the white middle class have almost the same net worth as typical members of the black upper-class, irrespective of the latter group's higher income and occupational status (21)

*For every 4.6 whites stopped in 1997-1998, for example, police were able to make one arrest, meaning that roughly 22 percent of the time their suspicions were justified. Even this is not a very impressive percentage but it is far better than that for blacks. Police had to stop 7.3 blacks before making a single arrest, meaning that only 14 percent of the time was their suspicion justified.

*Black incarceration has exploded several times over, even while black crime has plummeted in the past twenty years (5)

*In New York State, according to one recent study, if blacks arrested were treated the same as whites for the same crimes, with the same priors, in the same jurisdictions, one-third of all blacks in the state sent to jail or prison annually would have been spared such a sentence. This amounts to nearly 4500 blacks sent to jail or prison each year in New York who would not have been incarcerated had they merely been white (12)

*In Pennsylvania, even when prior records and severity of a given crime are the same, white male offenders between the ages of 18-29 are thirty-eight percent less likely to be imprisoned than similar black males (13)

*Nationally, black youth are forty-eight times more likely than whites to be incarcerated for a first-time drug offense, even when all factors surrounding the crime are the same (16)

*Although blacks and Latinos are ninety percent of persons incarcerated nationally for drugs, they represent only twenty-three percent of drug users, according to the most recent federal data. Meanwhile, whites, who are between seventy percent and three-fourths of users, comprise less than ten percent of those incarcerated for drugs (21)

Does colorblindness erase reality? To what benefit is it to a black child, or a child of color, to not understand the world they live in and what they are likely to confront?
 

Nonsensical

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Yes, but we don't all know it or would like to admitt it.

And racism can be real subtle that you can hardly even notice it.
 

simulatedworld

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Ignore race? I'm getting your ideal, but it doesn't really make sense to me. How do you teach someone to ignore race? Why would you want anyone to ignore race when it is still a real issue? How do you solve problems by ignoring them?


So you don't think that race is a big deal? The problem is not individuals recognizing race, the problem of racism is that it's institutionalized. It is for that reason, and that reason alone, that there are pride movements in the first place. Pride movements are simply attempting to counter the institutionalization of racism, and the centuries of effects that are still impacting millions. How does covering your eyes prevent you from getting shot up over 30x's by police officers ,on your wedding day, as you pull out your wallet?



Does colorblindness erase reality?

Do ten pages of irrelevant statistics that completely miss the point help anything?

You must have accidentally misread my post as, "Racism doesn't exist", because I can't think of any other reason you'd respond in such an inappropriate manner.

I think if we teach children to ignore race, the socioeconomic inequalities of which you speak will gradually fade away over generations. Furthermore, that's the only way to do it. People I know all of races don't want to be considered "[color word] people", just people.

If my kid asks, "Daddy, why does that family have brown skin?", the answer is simply: "Well, some people have darker skin than others. No big deal." End of story. You want people to stop judging each other based on race, you need to stop implanting the idea that race makes them somehow profoundly different.

Listen, it's not ignoring the problem--it's actively solving it by changing the way we teach children to think about race. That is the only way to ever make it a true non-issue. You don't see people banding together based on other random demographics like hair or eye color, or height. Race is no different from any other such random and arbitrary demographics, but the fact that we bring up our children to believe it is is the very reason it's STILL a big deal!

Do I think race has no effect on one's life in modern America? No, of course not. Do I think it shouldn't have any effect?

Yes, and that's why I believe the only way to realize this ideal is to stop drawing children's attention to racial differences--how do you think racist attitudes are spread from generation to generation?

If you teach children that race is a heavily divisive issue, you just get another generation heavily divided by race. The only way to foster true racial equality and virtually eliminate racism is to fight it at the root--by not telling our children that their skin color makes them any different from others. That idea has to come from somewhere--we're not born seeing arbitrary racial divisions between ourselves and others. This is purely an issue of nurture.

Save your endless platitudes and statistics; I certainly don't need them. Racial inequality would not be the reality in the first place if we created true colorblindness.
 

Charmed Justice

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You must have accidentally misread my post as, "Racism doesn't exist", because I can't think of any other reason you'd respond in such an inappropriate manner.
Actually, I read you post just fine and responded accordingly. Defensiveness your case doesn't make.

I think if we teach children to ignore race, the socioeconomic inequalities of which you speak will gradually fade away over generations. Furthermore, that's the only way to do it. People I know all of races don't want to be considered "[color word] people", just people.
Explain how that works. I'm black, my son is mixed. Help us. So I teach my son to ignore race by doing what? When he is confronted by a child who points out his race, what do I say or do? We've already gone through this, but what would you do in theory, since I'm assuming you have no children.

Yes, and that's why I believe the only way to realize this ideal is to stop drawing children's attention to racial differences--how do you think racist attitudes are spread from generation to generation?
Racism effects children just as well as adults. Would you like those statistics as well? What good is it for me, as a parent of a biracial child, to have him ignore what is obvious and relevant in his life as only a preschooler? Does that mean children should never watch tv, read a book, or magazine, or go to the store? They are constantly confronted with the issue of race. How does covering my eyes prevent my child from seeing?

If you teach children that race is a heavily divisive issue, you just get another generation heavily divided based on race. The only way to foster true racial equality and virtually eliminate racism is to fight it at the root--by not telling our children that their skin color makes them any different from others. That idea has to come from somewhere--we're not born seeing arbitrary racial divisions between ourselves and others. This is purely an issue of nurture.
We can tell children that their skin color doesn't matter on an individual scale: who you make friends with, who you love, who's smarter than whom,....You said that we need to stop teaching children that race is a big deal, but that is a bold faced lie. Race is a huge deal. You would lie to children to get them to buy into a false utopia? And when they are confronted with reality, then what?
 

simulatedworld

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Actually, I read you post just fine and responded accordingly. Defensiveness your case doesn't make.

Then why the endless irrelevant statistics that are totally beside the point?


Explain how that works. I'm black, my son is mixed. Help us. So I teach my son to ignore race by doing what? When he is confronted by a child who points out his race, what do I say or do? We've already gone through this, but what would you do in theory, since I'm assuming you have no children.

When you say "point out his race", do you mean in a hateful manner intended specifically to deride him for his race? Or do you mean in a neutral or positive way? The answer is very different depending.

If it was actively negative, you do the same thing you do when another child says anything hurtful to yours--talk to teachers or other authority figures in the environment. You can explain that some people ignorantly believe that race makes people different, but that it doesn't really.


Racism effects children just as well as adults. Would you like those statistics as well? What good is it for me, as a parent of a biracial child, to have him ignore what is obvious and relevant in his life as only a preschooler? Does that mean children should never watch tv, read a book, or magazine, or go to the store? They are constantly confronted with the issue of race. How does covering my eyes prevent my child from seeing?

You're missing the big picture here. If children simply aren't taught that race is significant, then it's impossible for race to be an issue. This doesn't work with only a few people doing it; it has to be a broader cultural shift.


We can tell children that their skin color doesn't matter on an individual scale: who you make friends with, who you love, who's smarter than whom,....You said that we need to stop teaching children that race is a big deal, but that is a bold faced lie. Race is a huge deal. You would lie to children to get them to buy into a false utopia? And when they are confronted with reality, then what?

Right, so how do you change the fact that race is a big deal? By continuing to teach children that it is? How is that a solution at all? Where does it end? How can cultural progress be made when we are constantly drawing children's attention to racial differences?

Can't you see that we need to make it not a bald-faced lie to say that race doesn't matter? And that continuing to say it does is in itself the very thing that perpetuates racist attitudes?

When children are confronted with hatred from others, we approach it the same way we always have--by explaining why such attitudes are ignorant and wrong, and doing whatever we can to rectify the problem/avoid it in the future. Otherwise we'll never see any real progress. You can't condition children to believe that race is a huge problem and then when they grow up tell them to behave as if it's not--the message needs to be clear from day one: Despite the fact that some people are ignorant and hateful, race is a random and uncontrollable demographic with little to no real significance--judge people on the content of their character, not on the color of their skin.
 

cafe

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Irrelevant to my point.


And if they speak perfect English? Then they are not of a lower class? One doesn't have to be from a certain socioeconomic background to know how to enunciate.
In my area, poor whites tend to use poor grammar and enunciation. My family, despite being mostly poor, mostly uses good grammar primarily (I think) because my grandma was raised in an upper middle class family in Chicago. She didn't approve of poor grammar.

I unconsciously switch between 'dialects' if you will, depending on who I'm speaking with, what I'm talking about, etc, so with enough money spent on dental work, clothes, etc I could probably pass as above my class. Some of my white friends would have to have some pretty good coaching on grammar/enunciation to have any hope of passing as anything other than poor because they just did not grow up 'speaking the language.' And though I would need dental work (straightening, whitening), my two oldest friends would have to have front teeth replaced to have any hope of passing for anything but very poor.

OTOH, a black person, especially a black man, could have perfect grammar, perfect clothes, perfect everything, and be loaded and I'm still safer from cops in my old mini-van that had plastic on the broken out windows, as are my poor, white female friends unless they happen to have a black husband in the vehicle.

Class/race is just complicated.
 

Charmed Justice

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Then why the endless irrelevant statistics that are totally beside the point?
Because they weren't beside the point.
You have made a number of comments suggesting to me that you believe the issue of racism to be in the hands of those who continue to bring it up rather than those who control and benefit from the institution.

When you say "point out his race", do you mean in a hateful manner intended specifically to deride him for his race? Or do you mean in a neutral or positive way? The answer is very different depending.
At this age, most pointing out is neutral, so let's go with that. Already though, we have faced the impossibility of ignoring race, which is largely a privilege of being white.

If it was actively negative, you do the same thing you do when another child says anything hurtful to yours--talk to teachers or other authority figures in the environment. You can explain that some people ignorantly believe that race makes people different, but that it doesn't really.
Right. And let's say the parent or teacher is prejudice or racist, or simply doesn't "get it", which is quite common. How does that fit into a child being able to ignore race? How many times does a child need to be confronted with the reality of their race before it becomes an issue which can no longer be ignored?

You're missing the big picture here. If children simply aren't taught that race is significant, then it's impossible for race to be an issue. This doesn't work with only a few people doing it; it has to be a broader cultural shift.
I am not disagreeing with your point that children ought to be raised to believe race to be insignificant on an individual scale. Over the course of 100+ years, what you're talking about may eventually lead to the phasing out of "race" as a criteria for judgment. Sure. But there is short-term social change, and then there is long-term social change, both need to be addressed. There is institutional racism and then their is personally mediated racism. They both need to be equally addressed. The statistics I posted should help anyone who questions why to understand that point. This isn't just a matter of rather or not there are more than 2 models of color in an Old Navy commercial.

Of course, I am concerned about my great great grandchildren, but I am obligated right now to raise my child with the best tools possible to help him navigate his world. In doing so, there is no way any responsible person of color would raise their child in this country, to be colorblind. And to raise a white child to be colorblind makes them completely out of sync with the realities of their friends, peers, potential lovers and family members, who must deal with issues and circumstances unfamiliar to them as a result of the differences in their race.


Right, so how do you change the fact that racism is a big deal? By continuing to teach children that it is? How is that a solution at all? Where does it end? How can cultural progress be made when we are constantly drawing children's attention to racial differences?
The point is, who is we? Is we me? Is we people of color? When my son goes to school, and virtually all of the stories center around people of European descent, is it me that is making race an issue in his life? When his history book is full of stories of European styled domination, control, intelligence, and creativity, is this some fault of mine? Should I make no effort, as a black person who knows better, to expose him to other things? When he turns on the tv, and the vast majority of respectable and attractive human characters are Caucasian, is it me, the black parent, making race an issue in his life? When I order a magazine for him; say, Highlights or something, and virtually every single one of the children are white, who is making the issue of race? If I had a black daughter who attended a school, and the parents didn't want their sons dating her, how do I get her to ignore race? If they stopped the school dance because they had no desire for interracial coupling, what do I do as the parent to aide in the continuation of my child's innocence of race;assuming, she made it that far ignorant of the issue.

Can't you see that we need to make it not a bald-faced lie to say that race doesn't matter? And that continuing to say it does is in itself the very thing that perpetuates racist attitudes?
.
Racist attitudes perpetuate themselves.
You've got brown hair, some other dude's got blond hair. You don't need to ignore the reality that the other dude has blond hair in order to appreciate the difference or find it largely unremarkable and irrelevant. Your social equality with other whites makes you capable of recognizing and accepting differences amongst yourselves without passing immediate negative judgments. It is not your ignorance of the differences that makes you equal. On the largest scale, I think social equality comes before ignorance or irrelevance of difference.


You can't condition children to believe that race is a huge problem and then when they grow up tell them to behave as if it's not--the message needs to be clear from day one:
It's not about conditioning them to believe race is a huge problem. It's about accepting the reality that race is a huge problem, and equipping your children with ways to combat it on an grand scale from the time it enters their life as relevant.

Who is asking adults to behave as though race isn't a huge problem? It's adults with the most power to make changes, and adults who should be the most aware of every last posted statistic that I gave you, and then some more. Preferably, a lot more.

Despite the fact that some people are ignorant and hateful, race is a random and uncontrollable demographic with little to no real significance--judge people on the content of their character, not on the color of their skin.
On a personal level, no disagreement.
 

FDG

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Yes, I like better latino and black women

but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.
 

The Decline

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Yes, I like better latino and black women

but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.

Or, y'know, the incredible discrepancies between a lower-class schooling and higher-class schooling, and their intertwined correlation to race.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Much more difficult to tie together and conclude than the obvious--unless someone is "racially" ambiguous. How do you really determine a lower middle class person from an upper middle class person?
You could not determine; with all certainty, someone's social class by first glance. Unfortunately, many people in our world associate social class by superficial means. :violin:

If someone was born into wealth, they may be easy to spot, but the upwardly mobile are not so easy to detect. Many people were born into lower classes and made it as adults. Their mannerisms and style of speech don't suddenly change with an increase to the bank account.

Of course not. :D But social classes tend to be correlated with levels of education. Levels of education tend to be correlated with speech, mannerisms, and bank account. At least, those are the stereotypes that are embedded within the psyche our culture. They aren't arbitrary, and in fact, they are quite irrational. But they still exist. :(

I should really stop posting in these controversial threads. I always end up sticking my foot in my mouth, no matter what I say. :cry:
 

Risen

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Yes, I like better latino and black women

but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.

OMG I hope you're not serious. Just say no, you're not. If you say yes you are, I don't even have the will to say anything more.
 

Charmed Justice

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Unfortunately, many people in our world associate social class by superficial means.
Very true. And those types of people lose huge accounts in sales departments when they assume the lower class sounding person doesn't have loaded pockets. Ha! More for me.:D
 

lowtech redneck

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but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.

The southern half of the continental United States has more direct sunlight than Italy. Also, our food products are heavily enriched with Vitamin D. While early childhood nutrition is important for mental development, I don't think the United States is deficient in the relevant nutrients, relative to Europe. Disparities in measured intelligence (in developed nations) are primarily the result of culture and upbringing.
 

Risen

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The southern half of the continental United States has more direct sunlight than Italy. Also, our food products are heavily enriched with Vitamin D. While early childhood nutrition is important for mental development, I don't think the United States is deficient in the relevant nutrients, relative to Europe. Disparities in measured intelligence (in developed nations) are primarily the result of culture and upbringing.

I commend you for even being able to take that seriously. I couldn't wrap my head around the ridiculous logic. :doh:
 

simulatedworld

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Because they weren't beside the point.
You have made a number of comments suggesting to me that you believe the issue of racism to be in the hands of those who continue to bring it up rather than those who control and benefit from the institution.

I'm forced to assume you either can't or won't get this concept, so nevermind.


At this age, most pointing out is neutral, so let's go with that. Already though, we have faced the impossibility of ignoring race, which is largely a privilege of being white.

By "ignoring" I mean simply not considering it a significant difference. I don't mean that we will literally not notice that other people have different skin colors, just that we need a broader cultural shift toward not placing any importance on it.


Right. And let's say the parent or teacher is prejudice or racist, or simply doesn't "get it", which is quite common. How does that fit into a child being able to ignore race? How many times does a child need to be confronted with the reality of their race before it becomes an issue which can no longer be ignored?

You think racism among public school teachers is "quite common", do you? Let's see some backing for that, please.

In any event, if your child's public school teacher is treating him markedly differently out of racial prejudice, it's time to talk to the principal/police/local news. You can take this to court if necessary; I just really don't see why you think public school teachers would show significant patterns of racism, so maybe here is a place where you could provide some statistics that are actually relevant.


I am not disagreeing with your point that children ought to be raised to believe race to be insignificant on an individual scale. Over the course of 100+ years, what you're talking about may eventually lead to the phasing out of "race" as a criteria for judgment. Sure. But there is short-term social change, and then there is long-term social change, both need to be addressed. There is institutional racism and then their is personally mediated racism. They both need to be equally addressed. The statistics I posted should help anyone who questions why to understand that point. This isn't just a matter of rather or not there are more than 2 models of color in an Old Navy commercial.

Bolded part = exactly the point. We can't continue teaching children, "Race is a really really big deal that makes people very different from each other...BUT YOU SHOULD PRETEND IT ISN'T, LEST PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE RACIST!!"

How do you think three little black kids in an otherwise white public school classroom feel when we parade around their differences and shove them in all the children's faces in the name of "celebrating diversity"? If we want to truly integrate people, we can't keep pointing out to our children HEY LOOK THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU! You're just singling them out and making them feel even more awkward and isolated, and you're subconsciously reinforcing the idea that race is a significant distinction. It's not, and we shouldn't be teaching children that it is.

We should, of course, teach the history of race and racism in our history classes, but make it clear that in modern times, race is no longer considered any kind of significant difference.

I'm not telling you to ignore him when your kid comes home and asks why someone used a racial slur toward him; I'm just saying this overemphasis on CELEBRATING RACIAL DIVERSITY YAAAAYYYY!!!! is absurd and counterproductive. Progress here will be made, as you said, by slowly phasing out race as a criteria for judgment.

When we focus on "celebrating racial diversity", we are making racism worse by perpetuating the idea that race should be a criteria for judgment.

Of course, I am concerned about my great great grandchildren, but I am obligated right now to raise my child with the best tools possible to help him navigate his world. In doing so, there is no way any responsible person of color would raise their child in this country, to be colorblind. And to raise a white child to be colorblind makes them completely out of sync with the realities of their friends, peers, potential lovers and family members, who must deal with issues and circumstances unfamiliar to them as a result of the differences in their race.

There's a difference between colorblindness (which is obviously impossible) and simply never introducing the idea that race should be a barrier between people. Racist parents breed racist children, and if you say "Ok Timmy now you're white and that's wonderful and great and you should be proud of it...but Jimmy over here is black and that's ALSO wonderful and great and he should be proud of that too!", then you're sending a very mixed message. Children will think, "Wait, if we're supposed to judge people based on their character and not on their race, then why do they keep making such a big deal and telling us to celebrate our differences?"

You don't solve this problem by celebrating racial differences; you solve it by eliminating the perceived character difference between different races.



The point is, who is we? Is we me? Is we people of color? When my son goes to school, and virtually all of the stories center around people of European descent, is it me that is making race an issue in his life? When his history book is full of stories of European styled domination, control, intelligence, and creativity, is this some fault of mine? Should I make no effort, as a black person who knows better, to expose him to other things? When he turns on the tv, and the vast majority of respectable and attractive human characters are Caucasian, is it me, the black parent, making race an issue in his life? When I order a magazine for him; say, Highlights or something, and virtually every single one of the children are white, who is making the issue of race? If I had a black daughter who attended a school, and the parents didn't want their sons dating her, how do I get her to ignore race? If they stopped the school dance because they had no desire for interracial coupling, what do I do as the parent to aide in the continuation of my child's innocence of race;assuming, she made it that far ignorant of the issue.

Do you live in 1962? These problems are gradually improving over time, and it's going to take a long time to complete the process. I am not telling you to keep your child totally ignorant of the fact that some people ignorantly overemphasize race, just to foster an attitude of placing character and life accomplishments as far more important values than race when raising your children, no matter what race you are.
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Racist attitudes perpetuate themselves.
You've got brown hair, some other dude's got blond hair. You don't need to ignore the reality that the other dude has blond hair in order to appreciate the difference or find it largely unremarkable and irrelevant. Your social equality with other whites makes you capable of recognizing and accepting differences amongst yourselves without passing immediate negative judgments. It is not your ignorance of the differences that makes you equal. On the largest scale, I think social equality comes before ignorance or irrelevance of difference.

Umm no, the fact that random uncontrollable demographics are meaningless and irrelevant is what makes me able to appreciate such minor differences without considering them significant, and I resent your implication that social equality is the only reason I think this way.

Oh please--it's called logic, not social conditioning. Don't tell me why I believe the way I believe; you don't know me and you don't know what motivations I have for my beliefs except for what I've told you.

And imho, true social equality will only happen as a result of de-emphasizing racial differences. The more you emphasize them, the more racist attitudes continue to propagate and the less social progress is made. So go ahead, tell your kid that he's different and special and wonderful for being black, but don't be surprised when he (and his peers) are unable to break down racial barriers between themselves because you've shoved the idea that OMG RACIAL DIVERSITY IS GREAT!!! down their throats from birth.





It's not about conditioning them to believe race is a huge problem. It's about accepting the reality that race is a huge problem, and equipping your children with ways to combat it on an grand scale from the time it enters their life as relevant.

So one more time now: How do we CHANGE the fact that race is a huge problem?

Since, as we know, race makes no real difference to anyone's character, how do we change the broader societal attitude that it does?

You can and should explain some history if and when your child encounters racism in the real world, but you should *NOT* create the impression that his race makes him better or worse or any different than anyone else. Being black isn't GREAT AND AWESOME AND WONDERFUL any more than being white is; it's just neutral and insignificant. Overemphasizing it in a positive way is almost as bad as overemphasizing it in a negative way--the only answer is de-emphasis.

I am not proud to be white, or male, or American, or blond, or any other random demographics. I'm proud of my accomplishments in life, not random bullshit characteristics over which I have no control. And I certainly hope that if I have children, I will teach them this sort of value system.



Who is asking adults to behave as though race isn't a huge problem? It's adults with the most power to make changes, and adults who should be the most aware of every last posted statistic that I gave you, and then some more. Preferably, a lot more.
On a personal level, no disagreement.

Yes, but every adult was at one point an impressionable child, and they had to get the idea that race is a big deal from somewhere--that being from adults at the time who imparted this idea upon them at a young age. So if adults stop raising their children to think that race is a big deal, RACE WILL CEASE TO BE A BIG DEAL.

I'm not arguing with you that race is still a big deal, but you've offered absolutely no argument for how to move toward race not being a big deal. At least I'm trying to do something about it!
 

Edgar

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There is no racial bigotry here!
I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers!
Here you are all equally worthless!
 

Mole

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Racism is ascribing a characteristic to an individual on the basis of their perceived race.

And interestingly racism is not ascribing characteristics to a group.
 

The Decline

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Racism is ascribing a characteristic to an individual on the basis of their perceived race.

And interestingly racism is not ascribing characteristics to a group.

It's both. Discrimination takes the second and uses it upon the individual.
 
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