Aren't we all racists?

[Charmed Justice]

The worst thing about disrimination, is the lower class status, the poverty. Therefore, the lower class is really the worst thing, is it not?

Not necessarily, and not according to many who research the issue.

From Tim WiseUntitled

Green Isn't the Only Color That Matters: Racism and the Black Middle & Upper Class

Yet, not only is racism a problem for those who haven't "made it," in the common parlance; indeed, it remains a problem, even for those who have: an important point to understand, given the tendency for even well-meaning people to insist that in the U.S., "the only color that matters is green." As it turns out, nothing could be further from the truth.

Though it may seem counterintuitive, racism might actually be more of a unique burden for the black middle class and affluent, than for the black poor.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Not necessarily, and not according to many who research the issue.

From Tim WiseUntitled

Where's the evidence?

 

[Charmed Justice]

Where's the evidence?

What are you looking for? I've got plenty. Not to mention, there's a lot in that one article alone.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Ahem... Do you have evidence that an affluent black person is worse off than a poor white person?

 

[Charmed Justice]

Ahem... Do you have evidence that an affluent black person is worse off than a poor white person?

That's not a point that I'm arguing. You said the worst thing about discrimination is the lower class status that results. I was responding to that only.

 

[entropie]

Nope, except with vulcans

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Let me clarify, I'm looking for statistical evidence taken taken from a diverse class of participants that indicates that skin color alone is a greater source of prejudice than class.

Also, all of the people mentioned in that article came up when racism was a much bigger problem in the country.

I'm not saying that racism doesn't still affect the lives of people of color. All I'm saying is that all else being equal, class divides play a much greater part in the unconscious prejudices of America than race.

For someone growing up today, racism may still function as an obstacle to success, but this affect is nowhere near as large as it used to be.

Also, if racism is such an issue, why don't we hear those of oriental or hispanic decent harping about it more?

Maybe its that in oriental culture the importance of education is stressed within the family. Thus more people of asian decent rise to the upper levels of education and find success in proportion with this educational achievement.

I would say that what is perceived as racism is actually culturism and a reaction to the rise of thug culture.

If it was pure racism, wouldn't all races be affected equally?

 

[Ginkgo]

It's like when Socrates(really Plato) said that Democracy was the worst government because it always lead to Tyranny. This really confused me. Why not just say that Tyranny is the worst form of government then, if it is technically the negative outcome state that makes Democracy so bad?

Because Democracy disguises itself as something much more appealing, thus stupefying those who are under it's rule?

 

[lowtech redneck]

My point was simply that I don't think that there are millions of white people out there desperately digging for the courage to play Dixie on their truck horn, or to wear a Dixie Outfitters t-shirt, any more so than there are millions of whites who secretly harbor the desire to join the Klan. I've heard the "afraid" argument used by many organizations(the NAAWP, for example), which is why I made that extreme example. The argument is quite familiar.

And once again, you're conflating the two...twice in one paragraph. Affinity for the Confederate flag and the desire to join the Klan or the NAAWP are as separate as belief in a graduated income tax or trade unions and sympathy for Marxist-Leninism.

Also, empathy is a two-way street; one cannot build understanding or unite the two dominate currents of Southern culture by denigrating one side or by either avoiding reference to the past, or emphasizing the negative aspects of the same. For instance, instead of boycotting South Carolina and calling them racist for flying the Confederate battle flag on top of a Confederate Soldier's memorial, how about instead advocate conciliation and reconciliation through the construction of a monument celebrating the preservarence and honoring the suffering of the black victims of slavery and segregation at the same location? And to encourage all citizens of the state to respect and honor the feelings surrounding both monuments, and perhaps even incorporate both perspectives into a common regional identity that is no longer divided along racial lines, but instead respects and identifies with the intersecting/inseparable heritage of both? To me, that's a lot more productive-and more empathetic-than attempting to pressure either stakeholder into metaphorically defecating on the graves of their ancestors in order to win acceptance from the other.

 

[Laurie]

Class distinction is where the term "white trash" comes from.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Let me clarify, I'm looking for statistical evidence taken from a diverse class of participants that indicates that skin color alone is a greater source of prejudice than class.

Are statistics really necessary to know that poor whites have always been elevated over poor blacks; rich whites always elevated over rich blacks? If the issue were class, then those of the same class would get treated the same way, irrespective of race.

When you go to apply for a job, the prospective employer doesn't see your bank account or your home. When you go to a restaurant, no one knows what's in your wallet. Skin color alone is a greater source of prejudice than class because it is more immediately apparent.

Also, all of the people mentioned in that article came up when racism was a much bigger problem in the country.

But the issues being tackled in the article were recent.

I'm not saying that racism doesn't still affect the lives of people of color. All I'm saying is that all else being equal, class divides play a much greater part in the unconscious prejudices of America than race.

They work in tandem, so I'm not sure how the two can be separated. If you are white male and poor, once you lose the poor, you're pretty much OK. If you are a black male and poor, you may lose the poor, but you are still a black male. If you are a black female and poor, you may lose the poor, but you're still black, and you're still female. That's triple jeopardy to contend with.

Also, if racism is such an issue, why don't we hear those of oriental or hispanic decent harping about it more?

The history of Asians and Hispanics in America does not include 246 years of enslavement in this country + a century more of segregation which just ended in my own mother's childhood.

Maybe its that in oriental culture the importance of education is stressed within the family. Thus more people of asian decent rise to the upper levels of education and find success in proportion with this educational achievement.

FurtherUntitled:

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 43 percent of black fourth-graders do one hour or more of homework per night, as do 45 percent of whites and 47 percent of Hispanics.
In fact, black and Hispanic fourth-graders are both more likely than whites that age to do more than one hour of homework, with 18 percent of Hispanics, 17 percent of blacks, but only 15 percent of whites putting in this amount of study time daily.
Although Asians demonstrate more study time at this level, the differences between them and other students of color are not substantial: about 21 percent of Asian students in fourth grade study more than one hour.

There is also no evidence that black parents take less interest in their children's education, or fail to reinforce the learning that takes place in the classroom once their children are home. Once again, NCES statistics indicate that black children are more likely than whites to often spend time with their parents on homework. Black students are twice as likely as white students to get help from their parents on homework every day of the school week (twenty percent compared to ten percent), and while roughly half of black students get help from parents on homework at least three times each week, approximately two-thirds of whites get such help two times or less, with whites a third more likely than blacks to work with parents rarely if ever on their homework.

Of all the evidence disproving the notion that blacks place less value on education than whites, nothing makes the point more clearly than attendance information. Black twelfth graders are more than twice as likely as whites to have perfect attendance (16 percent versus 7.4 percent), and are even more likely than Asians to have perfect attendance. Whites are more likely than blacks to have missed seven or more days during the last semester, while blacks are the least likely to have missed that many days of school. There is also no significant difference between whites, Asians and blacks in terms of their likelihood to skip classes.

I would say that what is perceived as racism is actually culturism and a reaction to the rise of thug culture.

So slavery, segregation, and racial discrimination are rooted in "thug" culture? Please, explain. With evidence.

If it was pure racism, wouldn't all races be affected equally?

No. Like all class systems, including ones based on race, there is a hierarchy. I'm sure you're familiar with South African apartheid.

 

[Charmed Justice]

And once again, you're conflating the two...twice in one paragraph. Affinity for the Confederate flag and the desire to join the Klan or the NAAWP are as separate as belief in a graduated income tax or trade unions and sympathy for Marxist-Leninism.

To a percentage of people, of course. To the majority? You would have to prove that one in order for me to believe it.

Also, empathy is a two-way street; one cannot build understanding or unite the two dominate currents of Southern culture by denigrating one side or by either avoiding reference to the past, or emphasizing the negative aspects of the same. For instance, instead of boycotting South Carolina and calling them racist for flying the Confederate battle flag on top of a Confederate Soldier's memorial, how about instead advocate conciliation and reconciliation through the construction of a monument celebrating the preservarence and honoring the suffering of the black victims of slavery and segregation at the same location?

So the descendants of slaves should attempt to make appeals to the descendants and sympathizers of the Confederates? Very. Interesting.

And to encourage all citizens of the state to respect and honor the feelings surrounding both monuments, and perhaps even incorporate both perspectives into a common regional identity that is no longer divided along racial lines, but instead respects and identifies with the intersecting/inseparable heritage of both? To me, that's a lot more productive-and more empathetic-than attempting to pressure either stakeholder into metaphorically defecating on the graves of their ancestors in order to win acceptance from the other.

That all sounds beautiful, and I'd be all for it. I imagine most blacks would be as well. The question is, is that what the majority of Confederate sympathizers want? The power has always been in their hands, as the majority. I've never seen such a movement on their part. Nothing close to it.

My ancestors are black, white, and dead. Human slavery and racism are moral defecations on humanity. My opinion would be similar if the issue were the flag of black liberation. The symbol is polarizing, and does not promote unity within a culture still licking its wounds.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

We live in 2009, you were never a slave were you.

I have some statistics taken from the US census.

The Problem – Why Visible Men | The Success Network for Black Boys & Men - Visible Men


Disparate Educational Opportunities

* Eighty-six percent of Black fourth graders cannot read at grade level while, 83 percent of Latino and 58 percent of White fourth graders cannot read at grade level; and 89 percent of Black, 85 percent of Latino and 59 percent of White 8th graders cannot do math at grade level.
* Black students are more likely than any other students to be in special education programs for children with mental retardation or emotional disturbance. Black and American Indian children are almost twice as likely as White children to be retained in a grade. The public school suspension rate among Black and American Indian students is almost three times that for Whites. Black, Latino, and American Indian children are more than twice as likely as White children to drop out of school. According to the US Department of Education, only 59 percent of Black students graduated from high school on time with a regular diploma in 2006.
* When Black children do graduate from high school, they have a greater chance of being unemployed and a lower chance of going to college full-time than White high school graduates. Only 48,000 Black males earn a bachelor’s degree each year, but an estimated 1 in 3 Black men ages 20-29 is under correctional supervision or control. Approximately 815,000 Black males were incarcerated in state or federal prisons or local jails at mid-year 2007.
* The unemployment rate for young Black men is over twice the rate for young white, Hispanic and Asian men . In addition, fewer Black men between the ages of 16 and 29 are in the labor force compared to white, Hispanic and Asian men in the same age group. Over 20% of young Black men live in poverty compared to 18% of Hispanic, 12% of Asian and 10% of white men.
* Fewer than 8% of young Black men have graduated from college compared to 17% of whites and 35% of Asians.

 

[The Decline]

Let me clarify, I'm looking for statistical evidence taken taken from a diverse class of participants that indicates that skin color alone is a greater source of prejudice than class.

This is a debate that rages on in sociological academic circles. You will find varying conclusions from different scholars. It's certainly tricky to tease apart all the other variables, as most sociologists have accepted that race, gender, class, and other minor variables are interconnected when it comes to most discriminatory scenarios.

 

[Ginkgo]

When you go to apply for a job, the prospective employer doesn't see your bank account or your home. When you go to a restaurant, no one knows what's in your wallet. Skin color alone is a greater source of prejudice than class because it is more immediately apparent.

I disagree. Dialect, apparel, cars, and mannerisms among other things are all indicative of social class. All of these are readily available for scrutiny in social situations. Your anecdote is contradictory because the quality of the restaurant is also apparent.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I disagree. Dialect, apparel, cars, mannerisms among other things are all indicative of social class. All of these are readily available for scrutiny in social situations.

+1

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I disagree. Dialect, apparel, cars, and mannerisms among other things are all indicative of social class. All of these are readily available for scrutiny in social situations. Your anecdote is contradictory because the quality of the restaurant is also apparent.

Umm, no they're not. Plenty of people "accessorize" above their class.

I wouldn't say that either class or race is more important. At the same time I wouldn't dismiss race as irrelevant once class inequalities are removed.

 

[Ginkgo]

Umm, no they're not. Plenty of people "accessorize" above their class.

I wouldn't say that either class or race is more important. At the same time I wouldn't dismiss race as irrelevant once inequalities are removed.

They are all indicative, not arbitrary.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

They are all indicative, not arbitrary.

I can read, thanks. And I still disagree.

 

[lowtech redneck]

To a percentage of people, of course. To the majority? You would have to prove that one in order for me to believe it.

The debate seems to have come full circle. You truly believe that most people who cherish the flag as an emblem of heritage and regional pride are bigots, and act accordingly.