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View Poll Results: Aren't we all racists?

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  • Yes, in a way.

    19 26.39%
  • No way.

    16 22.22%
  • Prejudiced, but not racist.

    37 51.39%
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  1. #171
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yes, I like better latino and black women

    but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.
    Or, y'know, the incredible discrepancies between a lower-class schooling and higher-class schooling, and their intertwined correlation to race.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Much more difficult to tie together and conclude than the obvious--unless someone is "racially" ambiguous. How do you really determine a lower middle class person from an upper middle class person?
    You could not determine; with all certainty, someone's social class by first glance. Unfortunately, many people in our world associate social class by superficial means.

    If someone was born into wealth, they may be easy to spot, but the upwardly mobile are not so easy to detect. Many people were born into lower classes and made it as adults. Their mannerisms and style of speech don't suddenly change with an increase to the bank account.
    Of course not. But social classes tend to be correlated with levels of education. Levels of education tend to be correlated with speech, mannerisms, and bank account. At least, those are the stereotypes that are embedded within the psyche our culture. They aren't arbitrary, and in fact, they are quite irrational. But they still exist.

    I should really stop posting in these controversial threads. I always end up sticking my foot in my mouth, no matter what I say.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yes, I like better latino and black women

    but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.
    OMG I hope you're not serious. Just say no, you're not. If you say yes you are, I don't even have the will to say anything more.

  4. #174
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Unfortunately, many people in our world associate social class by superficial means.
    Very true. And those types of people lose huge accounts in sales departments when they assume the lower class sounding person doesn't have loaded pockets. Ha! More for me.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  5. #175
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.
    The southern half of the continental United States has more direct sunlight than Italy. Also, our food products are heavily enriched with Vitamin D. While early childhood nutrition is important for mental development, I don't think the United States is deficient in the relevant nutrients, relative to Europe. Disparities in measured intelligence (in developed nations) are primarily the result of culture and upbringing.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The southern half of the continental United States has more direct sunlight than Italy. Also, our food products are heavily enriched with Vitamin D. While early childhood nutrition is important for mental development, I don't think the United States is deficient in the relevant nutrients, relative to Europe. Disparities in measured intelligence (in developed nations) are primarily the result of culture and upbringing.
    I commend you for even being able to take that seriously. I couldn't wrap my head around the ridiculous logic.

  7. #177
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Because they weren't beside the point.
    You have made a number of comments suggesting to me that you believe the issue of racism to be in the hands of those who continue to bring it up rather than those who control and benefit from the institution.
    I'm forced to assume you either can't or won't get this concept, so nevermind.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    At this age, most pointing out is neutral, so let's go with that. Already though, we have faced the impossibility of ignoring race, which is largely a privilege of being white.
    By "ignoring" I mean simply not considering it a significant difference. I don't mean that we will literally not notice that other people have different skin colors, just that we need a broader cultural shift toward not placing any importance on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Right. And let's say the parent or teacher is prejudice or racist, or simply doesn't "get it", which is quite common. How does that fit into a child being able to ignore race? How many times does a child need to be confronted with the reality of their race before it becomes an issue which can no longer be ignored?
    You think racism among public school teachers is "quite common", do you? Let's see some backing for that, please.

    In any event, if your child's public school teacher is treating him markedly differently out of racial prejudice, it's time to talk to the principal/police/local news. You can take this to court if necessary; I just really don't see why you think public school teachers would show significant patterns of racism, so maybe here is a place where you could provide some statistics that are actually relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    I am not disagreeing with your point that children ought to be raised to believe race to be insignificant on an individual scale. Over the course of 100+ years, what you're talking about may eventually lead to the phasing out of "race" as a criteria for judgment. Sure. But there is short-term social change, and then there is long-term social change, both need to be addressed. There is institutional racism and then their is personally mediated racism. They both need to be equally addressed. The statistics I posted should help anyone who questions why to understand that point. This isn't just a matter of rather or not there are more than 2 models of color in an Old Navy commercial.
    Bolded part = exactly the point. We can't continue teaching children, "Race is a really really big deal that makes people very different from each other...BUT YOU SHOULD PRETEND IT ISN'T, LEST PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE RACIST!!"

    How do you think three little black kids in an otherwise white public school classroom feel when we parade around their differences and shove them in all the children's faces in the name of "celebrating diversity"? If we want to truly integrate people, we can't keep pointing out to our children HEY LOOK THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU! You're just singling them out and making them feel even more awkward and isolated, and you're subconsciously reinforcing the idea that race is a significant distinction. It's not, and we shouldn't be teaching children that it is.

    We should, of course, teach the history of race and racism in our history classes, but make it clear that in modern times, race is no longer considered any kind of significant difference.

    I'm not telling you to ignore him when your kid comes home and asks why someone used a racial slur toward him; I'm just saying this overemphasis on CELEBRATING RACIAL DIVERSITY YAAAAYYYY!!!! is absurd and counterproductive. Progress here will be made, as you said, by slowly phasing out race as a criteria for judgment.

    When we focus on "celebrating racial diversity", we are making racism worse by perpetuating the idea that race should be a criteria for judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Of course, I am concerned about my great great grandchildren, but I am obligated right now to raise my child with the best tools possible to help him navigate his world. In doing so, there is no way any responsible person of color would raise their child in this country, to be colorblind. And to raise a white child to be colorblind makes them completely out of sync with the realities of their friends, peers, potential lovers and family members, who must deal with issues and circumstances unfamiliar to them as a result of the differences in their race.
    There's a difference between colorblindness (which is obviously impossible) and simply never introducing the idea that race should be a barrier between people. Racist parents breed racist children, and if you say "Ok Timmy now you're white and that's wonderful and great and you should be proud of it...but Jimmy over here is black and that's ALSO wonderful and great and he should be proud of that too!", then you're sending a very mixed message. Children will think, "Wait, if we're supposed to judge people based on their character and not on their race, then why do they keep making such a big deal and telling us to celebrate our differences?"

    You don't solve this problem by celebrating racial differences; you solve it by eliminating the perceived character difference between different races.



    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    The point is, who is we? Is we me? Is we people of color? When my son goes to school, and virtually all of the stories center around people of European descent, is it me that is making race an issue in his life? When his history book is full of stories of European styled domination, control, intelligence, and creativity, is this some fault of mine? Should I make no effort, as a black person who knows better, to expose him to other things? When he turns on the tv, and the vast majority of respectable and attractive human characters are Caucasian, is it me, the black parent, making race an issue in his life? When I order a magazine for him; say, Highlights or something, and virtually every single one of the children are white, who is making the issue of race? If I had a black daughter who attended a school, and the parents didn't want their sons dating her, how do I get her to ignore race? If they stopped the school dance because they had no desire for interracial coupling, what do I do as the parent to aide in the continuation of my child's innocence of race;assuming, she made it that far ignorant of the issue.
    Do you live in 1962? These problems are gradually improving over time, and it's going to take a long time to complete the process. I am not telling you to keep your child totally ignorant of the fact that some people ignorantly overemphasize race, just to foster an attitude of placing character and life accomplishments as far more important values than race when raising your children, no matter what race you are.
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Racist attitudes perpetuate themselves.
    You've got brown hair, some other dude's got blond hair. You don't need to ignore the reality that the other dude has blond hair in order to appreciate the difference or find it largely unremarkable and irrelevant. Your social equality with other whites makes you capable of recognizing and accepting differences amongst yourselves without passing immediate negative judgments. It is not your ignorance of the differences that makes you equal. On the largest scale, I think social equality comes before ignorance or irrelevance of difference.
    Umm no, the fact that random uncontrollable demographics are meaningless and irrelevant is what makes me able to appreciate such minor differences without considering them significant, and I resent your implication that social equality is the only reason I think this way.

    Oh please--it's called logic, not social conditioning. Don't tell me why I believe the way I believe; you don't know me and you don't know what motivations I have for my beliefs except for what I've told you.

    And imho, true social equality will only happen as a result of de-emphasizing racial differences. The more you emphasize them, the more racist attitudes continue to propagate and the less social progress is made. So go ahead, tell your kid that he's different and special and wonderful for being black, but don't be surprised when he (and his peers) are unable to break down racial barriers between themselves because you've shoved the idea that OMG RACIAL DIVERSITY IS GREAT!!! down their throats from birth.





    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    It's not about conditioning them to believe race is a huge problem. It's about accepting the reality that race is a huge problem, and equipping your children with ways to combat it on an grand scale from the time it enters their life as relevant.
    So one more time now: How do we CHANGE the fact that race is a huge problem?

    Since, as we know, race makes no real difference to anyone's character, how do we change the broader societal attitude that it does?

    You can and should explain some history if and when your child encounters racism in the real world, but you should *NOT* create the impression that his race makes him better or worse or any different than anyone else. Being black isn't GREAT AND AWESOME AND WONDERFUL any more than being white is; it's just neutral and insignificant. Overemphasizing it in a positive way is almost as bad as overemphasizing it in a negative way--the only answer is de-emphasis.

    I am not proud to be white, or male, or American, or blond, or any other random demographics. I'm proud of my accomplishments in life, not random bullshit characteristics over which I have no control. And I certainly hope that if I have children, I will teach them this sort of value system.



    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Who is asking adults to behave as though race isn't a huge problem? It's adults with the most power to make changes, and adults who should be the most aware of every last posted statistic that I gave you, and then some more. Preferably, a lot more.
    On a personal level, no disagreement.
    Yes, but every adult was at one point an impressionable child, and they had to get the idea that race is a big deal from somewhere--that being from adults at the time who imparted this idea upon them at a young age. So if adults stop raising their children to think that race is a big deal, RACE WILL CEASE TO BE A BIG DEAL.

    I'm not arguing with you that race is still a big deal, but you've offered absolutely no argument for how to move toward race not being a big deal. At least I'm trying to do something about it!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #178
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    There is no racial bigotry here!
    I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers!
    Here you are all equally worthless!
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  9. #179
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Racism is ascribing a characteristic to an individual on the basis of their perceived race.

    And interestingly racism is not ascribing characteristics to a group.

  10. #180
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Racism is ascribing a characteristic to an individual on the basis of their perceived race.

    And interestingly racism is not ascribing characteristics to a group.
    It's both. Discrimination takes the second and uses it upon the individual.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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