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View Poll Results: Aren't we all racists?

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  • Yes, in a way.

    19 26.39%
  • No way.

    16 22.22%
  • Prejudiced, but not racist.

    37 51.39%
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  1. #161
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I disagree. Dialect, apparel, cars, and mannerisms among other things are all indicative of social class. All of these are readily available for scrutiny in social situations. Your anecdote is contradictory because the quality of the restaurant is also apparent.
    Much more difficult to tie together and conclude than the obvious--unless someone is "racially" ambiguous. How do you really determine a lower middle class person from an upper middle class person?

    If someone was born into wealth, they may be easy to spot, but the upwardly mobile are not so easy to detect. Many people were born into lower classes and made it as adults. Their mannerisms and style of speech don't suddenly change with an increase to the bank account.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  2. #162
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We live in 2009, you were never a slave were you.
    How is this comment relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I have some statistics taken from the US census.

    The Problem – Why Visible Men | The Success Network for Black Boys & Men - Visible Men


    Disparate Educational Opportunities

    * Eighty-six percent of Black fourth graders cannot read at grade level while, 83 percent of Latino and 58 percent of White fourth graders cannot read at grade level..............
    Ok. What do these statistics mean to you?
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  3. #163
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think you're right that it seems to come from blacks more often than anyone else. I'm all for racial equality and all, but "be proud of your race" is simply the wrong way to go about it--we need to teach children to ignore race entirely if we really want to see any progress. Drawing attention to such meaningless differences in the name of "celebrating diversity" only accomplishes just that--drawing unnecessary attention to meaningless demographic differences.
    Ignore race? I'm getting your ideal, but it doesn't really make sense to me. How do you teach someone to ignore race? Why would you want anyone to ignore race when it is still a real issue? How do you solve problems by ignoring them?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If we want future generations to stop thinking of race as a big deal, we need to stop teaching them that it is.
    So you don't think that race is a big deal? The problem is not individuals recognizing race, the problem of racism is that it's institutionalized. It is for that reason, and that reason alone, that there are pride movements in the first place. Pride movements are simply attempting to counter the institutionalization of racism, and the centuries of effects that are still impacting millions. How does covering your eyes prevent you from getting shot up over 30x's by police officers ,on your wedding day, as you pull out your wallet?

    *The typical white family has eleven times the net worth of the typical black family, and eight times the net worth of the typical Latino family, thanks to past and present barriers to wealth accumulation, income and equal housing (3)
    *Research suggests that the children of black middle class professionals are more likely to move downward on the class ladder than to move up, and far more likely to move downward than similarly-situated whites (17).

    *White families with incomes below the poverty line are more likely to own their own home than black households with incomes that are 2-3 times higher (18). Likewise, white households with incomes below $15,000 annually (and as low as $7500), actually have a greater average net worth than black households with incomes as high as $60,000 per year (19)

    *In the middle class, whites have 5.2 times more net worth, on average, than blacks (nearly $60,000 as opposed to less than $12,000), and among the wealthiest fifth of income earners, whites average 3.2 times the net worth, of blacks ($208,000 compared to $65,000). In other words, typical members of the white middle class have almost the same net worth as typical members of the black upper-class, irrespective of the latter group's higher income and occupational status (21)

    *For every 4.6 whites stopped in 1997-1998, for example, police were able to make one arrest, meaning that roughly 22 percent of the time their suspicions were justified. Even this is not a very impressive percentage but it is far better than that for blacks. Police had to stop 7.3 blacks before making a single arrest, meaning that only 14 percent of the time was their suspicion justified.

    *Black incarceration has exploded several times over, even while black crime has plummeted in the past twenty years (5)

    *In New York State, according to one recent study, if blacks arrested were treated the same as whites for the same crimes, with the same priors, in the same jurisdictions, one-third of all blacks in the state sent to jail or prison annually would have been spared such a sentence. This amounts to nearly 4500 blacks sent to jail or prison each year in New York who would not have been incarcerated had they merely been white (12)

    *In Pennsylvania, even when prior records and severity of a given crime are the same, white male offenders between the ages of 18-29 are thirty-eight percent less likely to be imprisoned than similar black males (13)

    *Nationally, black youth are forty-eight times more likely than whites to be incarcerated for a first-time drug offense, even when all factors surrounding the crime are the same (16)

    *Although blacks and Latinos are ninety percent of persons incarcerated nationally for drugs, they represent only twenty-three percent of drug users, according to the most recent federal data. Meanwhile, whites, who are between seventy percent and three-fourths of users, comprise less than ten percent of those incarcerated for drugs (21)
    Does colorblindness erase reality? To what benefit is it to a black child, or a child of color, to not understand the world they live in and what they are likely to confront?
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  4. #164
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Yes, but we don't all know it or would like to admitt it.

    And racism can be real subtle that you can hardly even notice it.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #165
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Ignore race? I'm getting your ideal, but it doesn't really make sense to me. How do you teach someone to ignore race? Why would you want anyone to ignore race when it is still a real issue? How do you solve problems by ignoring them?


    So you don't think that race is a big deal? The problem is not individuals recognizing race, the problem of racism is that it's institutionalized. It is for that reason, and that reason alone, that there are pride movements in the first place. Pride movements are simply attempting to counter the institutionalization of racism, and the centuries of effects that are still impacting millions. How does covering your eyes prevent you from getting shot up over 30x's by police officers ,on your wedding day, as you pull out your wallet?



    Does colorblindness erase reality?
    Do ten pages of irrelevant statistics that completely miss the point help anything?

    You must have accidentally misread my post as, "Racism doesn't exist", because I can't think of any other reason you'd respond in such an inappropriate manner.

    I think if we teach children to ignore race, the socioeconomic inequalities of which you speak will gradually fade away over generations. Furthermore, that's the only way to do it. People I know all of races don't want to be considered "[color word] people", just people.

    If my kid asks, "Daddy, why does that family have brown skin?", the answer is simply: "Well, some people have darker skin than others. No big deal." End of story. You want people to stop judging each other based on race, you need to stop implanting the idea that race makes them somehow profoundly different.

    Listen, it's not ignoring the problem--it's actively solving it by changing the way we teach children to think about race. That is the only way to ever make it a true non-issue. You don't see people banding together based on other random demographics like hair or eye color, or height. Race is no different from any other such random and arbitrary demographics, but the fact that we bring up our children to believe it is is the very reason it's STILL a big deal!

    Do I think race has no effect on one's life in modern America? No, of course not. Do I think it shouldn't have any effect?

    Yes, and that's why I believe the only way to realize this ideal is to stop drawing children's attention to racial differences--how do you think racist attitudes are spread from generation to generation?

    If you teach children that race is a heavily divisive issue, you just get another generation heavily divided by race. The only way to foster true racial equality and virtually eliminate racism is to fight it at the root--by not telling our children that their skin color makes them any different from others. That idea has to come from somewhere--we're not born seeing arbitrary racial divisions between ourselves and others. This is purely an issue of nurture.

    Save your endless platitudes and statistics; I certainly don't need them. Racial inequality would not be the reality in the first place if we created true colorblindness.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #166
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You must have accidentally misread my post as, "Racism doesn't exist", because I can't think of any other reason you'd respond in such an inappropriate manner.
    Actually, I read you post just fine and responded accordingly. Defensiveness your case doesn't make.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think if we teach children to ignore race, the socioeconomic inequalities of which you speak will gradually fade away over generations. Furthermore, that's the only way to do it. People I know all of races don't want to be considered "[color word] people", just people.
    Explain how that works. I'm black, my son is mixed. Help us. So I teach my son to ignore race by doing what? When he is confronted by a child who points out his race, what do I say or do? We've already gone through this, but what would you do in theory, since I'm assuming you have no children.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, and that's why I believe the only way to realize this ideal is to stop drawing children's attention to racial differences--how do you think racist attitudes are spread from generation to generation?
    Racism effects children just as well as adults. Would you like those statistics as well? What good is it for me, as a parent of a biracial child, to have him ignore what is obvious and relevant in his life as only a preschooler? Does that mean children should never watch tv, read a book, or magazine, or go to the store? They are constantly confronted with the issue of race. How does covering my eyes prevent my child from seeing?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you teach children that race is a heavily divisive issue, you just get another generation heavily divided based on race. The only way to foster true racial equality and virtually eliminate racism is to fight it at the root--by not telling our children that their skin color makes them any different from others. That idea has to come from somewhere--we're not born seeing arbitrary racial divisions between ourselves and others. This is purely an issue of nurture.
    We can tell children that their skin color doesn't matter on an individual scale: who you make friends with, who you love, who's smarter than whom,....You said that we need to stop teaching children that race is a big deal, but that is a bold faced lie. Race is a huge deal. You would lie to children to get them to buy into a false utopia? And when they are confronted with reality, then what?
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  7. #167
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Actually, I read you post just fine and responded accordingly. Defensiveness your case doesn't make.
    Then why the endless irrelevant statistics that are totally beside the point?


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Explain how that works. I'm black, my son is mixed. Help us. So I teach my son to ignore race by doing what? When he is confronted by a child who points out his race, what do I say or do? We've already gone through this, but what would you do in theory, since I'm assuming you have no children.
    When you say "point out his race", do you mean in a hateful manner intended specifically to deride him for his race? Or do you mean in a neutral or positive way? The answer is very different depending.

    If it was actively negative, you do the same thing you do when another child says anything hurtful to yours--talk to teachers or other authority figures in the environment. You can explain that some people ignorantly believe that race makes people different, but that it doesn't really.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Racism effects children just as well as adults. Would you like those statistics as well? What good is it for me, as a parent of a biracial child, to have him ignore what is obvious and relevant in his life as only a preschooler? Does that mean children should never watch tv, read a book, or magazine, or go to the store? They are constantly confronted with the issue of race. How does covering my eyes prevent my child from seeing?
    You're missing the big picture here. If children simply aren't taught that race is significant, then it's impossible for race to be an issue. This doesn't work with only a few people doing it; it has to be a broader cultural shift.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    We can tell children that their skin color doesn't matter on an individual scale: who you make friends with, who you love, who's smarter than whom,....You said that we need to stop teaching children that race is a big deal, but that is a bold faced lie. Race is a huge deal. You would lie to children to get them to buy into a false utopia? And when they are confronted with reality, then what?
    Right, so how do you change the fact that race is a big deal? By continuing to teach children that it is? How is that a solution at all? Where does it end? How can cultural progress be made when we are constantly drawing children's attention to racial differences?

    Can't you see that we need to make it not a bald-faced lie to say that race doesn't matter? And that continuing to say it does is in itself the very thing that perpetuates racist attitudes?

    When children are confronted with hatred from others, we approach it the same way we always have--by explaining why such attitudes are ignorant and wrong, and doing whatever we can to rectify the problem/avoid it in the future. Otherwise we'll never see any real progress. You can't condition children to believe that race is a huge problem and then when they grow up tell them to behave as if it's not--the message needs to be clear from day one: Despite the fact that some people are ignorant and hateful, race is a random and uncontrollable demographic with little to no real significance--judge people on the content of their character, not on the color of their skin.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #168
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Irrelevant to my point.


    And if they speak perfect English? Then they are not of a lower class? One doesn't have to be from a certain socioeconomic background to know how to enunciate.
    In my area, poor whites tend to use poor grammar and enunciation. My family, despite being mostly poor, mostly uses good grammar primarily (I think) because my grandma was raised in an upper middle class family in Chicago. She didn't approve of poor grammar.

    I unconsciously switch between 'dialects' if you will, depending on who I'm speaking with, what I'm talking about, etc, so with enough money spent on dental work, clothes, etc I could probably pass as above my class. Some of my white friends would have to have some pretty good coaching on grammar/enunciation to have any hope of passing as anything other than poor because they just did not grow up 'speaking the language.' And though I would need dental work (straightening, whitening), my two oldest friends would have to have front teeth replaced to have any hope of passing for anything but very poor.

    OTOH, a black person, especially a black man, could have perfect grammar, perfect clothes, perfect everything, and be loaded and I'm still safer from cops in my old mini-van that had plastic on the broken out windows, as are my poor, white female friends unless they happen to have a black husband in the vehicle.

    Class/race is just complicated.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #169
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Then why the endless irrelevant statistics that are totally beside the point?
    Because they weren't beside the point.
    You have made a number of comments suggesting to me that you believe the issue of racism to be in the hands of those who continue to bring it up rather than those who control and benefit from the institution.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    When you say "point out his race", do you mean in a hateful manner intended specifically to deride him for his race? Or do you mean in a neutral or positive way? The answer is very different depending.
    At this age, most pointing out is neutral, so let's go with that. Already though, we have faced the impossibility of ignoring race, which is largely a privilege of being white.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If it was actively negative, you do the same thing you do when another child says anything hurtful to yours--talk to teachers or other authority figures in the environment. You can explain that some people ignorantly believe that race makes people different, but that it doesn't really.
    Right. And let's say the parent or teacher is prejudice or racist, or simply doesn't "get it", which is quite common. How does that fit into a child being able to ignore race? How many times does a child need to be confronted with the reality of their race before it becomes an issue which can no longer be ignored?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You're missing the big picture here. If children simply aren't taught that race is significant, then it's impossible for race to be an issue. This doesn't work with only a few people doing it; it has to be a broader cultural shift.
    I am not disagreeing with your point that children ought to be raised to believe race to be insignificant on an individual scale. Over the course of 100+ years, what you're talking about may eventually lead to the phasing out of "race" as a criteria for judgment. Sure. But there is short-term social change, and then there is long-term social change, both need to be addressed. There is institutional racism and then their is personally mediated racism. They both need to be equally addressed. The statistics I posted should help anyone who questions why to understand that point. This isn't just a matter of rather or not there are more than 2 models of color in an Old Navy commercial.

    Of course, I am concerned about my great great grandchildren, but I am obligated right now to raise my child with the best tools possible to help him navigate his world. In doing so, there is no way any responsible person of color would raise their child in this country, to be colorblind. And to raise a white child to be colorblind makes them completely out of sync with the realities of their friends, peers, potential lovers and family members, who must deal with issues and circumstances unfamiliar to them as a result of the differences in their race.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Right, so how do you change the fact that racism is a big deal? By continuing to teach children that it is? How is that a solution at all? Where does it end? How can cultural progress be made when we are constantly drawing children's attention to racial differences?
    The point is, who is we? Is we me? Is we people of color? When my son goes to school, and virtually all of the stories center around people of European descent, is it me that is making race an issue in his life? When his history book is full of stories of European styled domination, control, intelligence, and creativity, is this some fault of mine? Should I make no effort, as a black person who knows better, to expose him to other things? When he turns on the tv, and the vast majority of respectable and attractive human characters are Caucasian, is it me, the black parent, making race an issue in his life? When I order a magazine for him; say, Highlights or something, and virtually every single one of the children are white, who is making the issue of race? If I had a black daughter who attended a school, and the parents didn't want their sons dating her, how do I get her to ignore race? If they stopped the school dance because they had no desire for interracial coupling, what do I do as the parent to aide in the continuation of my child's innocence of race;assuming, she made it that far ignorant of the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Can't you see that we need to make it not a bald-faced lie to say that race doesn't matter? And that continuing to say it does is in itself the very thing that perpetuates racist attitudes?
    .
    Racist attitudes perpetuate themselves.
    You've got brown hair, some other dude's got blond hair. You don't need to ignore the reality that the other dude has blond hair in order to appreciate the difference or find it largely unremarkable and irrelevant. Your social equality with other whites makes you capable of recognizing and accepting differences amongst yourselves without passing immediate negative judgments. It is not your ignorance of the differences that makes you equal. On the largest scale, I think social equality comes before ignorance or irrelevance of difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You can't condition children to believe that race is a huge problem and then when they grow up tell them to behave as if it's not--the message needs to be clear from day one:
    It's not about conditioning them to believe race is a huge problem. It's about accepting the reality that race is a huge problem, and equipping your children with ways to combat it on an grand scale from the time it enters their life as relevant.

    Who is asking adults to behave as though race isn't a huge problem? It's adults with the most power to make changes, and adults who should be the most aware of every last posted statistic that I gave you, and then some more. Preferably, a lot more.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Despite the fact that some people are ignorant and hateful, race is a random and uncontrollable demographic with little to no real significance--judge people on the content of their character, not on the color of their skin.
    On a personal level, no disagreement.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  10. #170
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Yes, I like better latino and black women

    but yeah it's true that black people in the US score lower on average on IQ tests than white people. I think this is mostly because many US cities don't have enough sunlight and/or the right climate for black people. If I was a really influent psychologist i would try to test blacks in miami/san diego, they'd probably average exactly the same as whites. In fact blacks here in Italy do just as fine as us whites in school, probably because there's enough sunlight for their development.
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