User Tag List

First 78910 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 92

  1. #81
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    Who's to say they are running because of fear? More than likely in that scenario they would just run because they know what would happen from experience.

    Perhaps it's more of an avoidance rather than a fear? Not sure how to explain it.
    l
    What are the origins of fear?

    Biological markers for stress response in animals are easily and objectively measured.
    (eg cortisol in saliva, adrenaline etc.)

    It can even be measured in the taste of meat, which is why certain slaughter techniques are practiced.
    It's really beyond dispute. But if it makes it easier for you to kill them, by all means keep deluding yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    First of all, I don't have "anecdotal stories" I'm just telling you from what I have observed first hand, in real life, in the wild. It is your choice to believe what you wish, but do not assume that what I tell you is hearsay.
    Thanks for countering the 'anecdotal stories' point by following up with what an anecdote actually means. Way to prove a point.

    Anecdote Definition | Definition of Anecdote at Dictionary.com


    The story you posted is irrelevant. I mean, deer don't start "twisting and turning" when they see an attacker. I never said deer weren't curious because they are indeed VERY curious. Even when they know I am there because they heard me, but they can't pinpoint exactly where I am in the woods, they will stay there for hours looking for me trying to sniff me out. Eventually they will run though.

    Where is the evidence in that article about any "defense"? All it says is that they came to the call. That's just because they are curious, I assure you. And I'm SURE that both female AND male deer responded to the calls. They just didn't report the males.
    First, it's not a story, it's a study done by university researchers. Yours would be story, theirs would be a study.

    Secondly, you assure me, you know both the female and male deer responded. Are you the deer whisperer? But, wait, how do you understand what they think/feel if they are completely void of emotions (thus, expressions) in the first place [according to you]?

    Also, like blue pointed out, fear is an emotion. So is curiosity. You might wanna figure out what emotions are before you try to defend your position. I have a feeling that in your case, it's less about animals having/not having emotions, and more about you not understanding what emotions are in the first place.

    As far as them crying "don't shoot!", well, maybe there's a reason animals can't talk. [Yeah I know, that was pretty evil, sorry. ]But really, animals don't know what "shoot" means. They are born with an innate sense: automatically avoid man. Unless of course, you F with their offspring, then you will probably get a mixture of flight AND fight.

    But like I said, believe what you wish. If it makes you comfortable to believe that momma deer went to "save" other fawns, by all means, believe it.
    Actually, I have a great deal of respect for the Native American tradition of how they view their relationship to nature and animals. And, thus, how they hunt.

    But, you are the first with an opposing view, so to be conductive to the debate, I wish you'd stay and flesh out the way you understand emotions and why animals don't have them, according to you.

  3. #83
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Animals have emotions. Scientists actually studied about human depression using lab rats. What they did is put the rat in a cage and electrify the floor so the rat tries to escape. After many attempts to escape the rat gives up and just sits there standing the pain (depression). When the researchers opened the cage the rat didn't go out. (it becomes a depressed 'emo' rat)
    They say rats have very similar mind structure to humans. (or brain)
    Depression isn't an emotion. It's a mood disorder which includes a 'numbing' of normal affect (emotion).

    Also, scientists are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #84
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Animals have emotions. Scientists actually studied about human depression using lab rats. What they did is put the rat in a cage and electrify the floor so the rat tries to escape. After many attempts to escape the rat gives up and just sits there standing the pain (depression). When the researchers opened the cage the rat didn't go out. (it becomes a depressed 'emo' rat)
    They say rats have very similar mind structure to humans. (or brain)
    This is known as 'learned helplessness', and it tends to show many similarities to clinical depression in people.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #85
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    6,168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Depression isn't an emotion. It's a mood disorder which includes a 'numbing' of normal affect (emotion).

    Also, scientists are stupid.
    Well as long as they are depressed they are feeling feelings.
    And why must you show hate to scientists. If it weren't for them, you wouldn't even have a computer to type on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    This is known as 'learned helplessness', and it tends to show many similarities to clinical depression in people.
    Well if they learnt helplessness they could only have learnt it through their feelings. Right? I mean they had the choice to go back out and they didn't, even when they knew they could.

  6. #86
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Well as long as they are depressed they are feeling feelings.
    Not necessarily. How does one diagnose depression in a rat?
    Depressed appetite? Clinically depressed per DSM IV? Decreased serotonin levels? Did he start reading Camus? The very idea of studying "human depression using lab rats" is patently absurd, as are most clinical trials, IMO.

    The argument is not that animals do not have emotions, rather that the study you chose to demonstrate it was not the best one.

    Although it does raise the question: Do scientists have emotions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #87
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post

    Well if they learnt helplessness they could only have learnt it through their feelings. Right? I mean they had the choice to go back out and they didn't, even when they knew they could.
    As stated before, I'll refrain from answering this question for now, as there is no way to show that animals do have feelings, and if they do, whether they experience them the same way we do. It's not like we can ask em. The scientific community is still working on how to tackle this problem.

    Now, personally, I very much believe that animals have emotions, and that it tends to be fairly obvious that they do. I am however very much aware of the fact that we do tend to project all kinds of crazy emotions on animals as well. The sheer number of owners that have told me that their cat is 'getting back at them for leaving him alone' 2 hours ago, or is doing something just to 'spite them' for telling them off 5 hours ago, is mindboggling and blatant projection.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #88
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Dude, after our Vent convo, it's been bugging me how to try and translate to you, how 'ethics' can be more palatable to you in this regard.

    And, I thought of one way (dunno if it will work), but from an NT you admire, and one I admire, to you, buddy:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M]Pale Blue Dot[/youtube]

    Animals, trees, humans, we're a finely balanced ecosystem called earth. We need each other, directly or indirectly, to preserve this balance, hence, each other. Understand, not destroy one another. Top of the food chain becomes obsolete when the links get broken, one by one from the base up. We won't have anything left to stand on. The power of the human mind (hence, our abilities) is our greatest gift, and thus, our greatest responsibility as well as our greatest burden. /spider-sagan
    I love that video. Love his book and subsequent film based off of it too, Contact.

    However, I think you're overstating and overexaggerating our interdependencies here in an attempt to get me to admit something. I do admit that it is necessary and should be encouraged that we conduct ourselves as responsibly as possible simply because it is in our best interest to do so. You don't trash your house to the point of unsustainability, and we shouldn't do that to earth either. You don't mistreat mice in a lab or monkeys in cognitive experiments and expect good results [unless you're testing the effect of poor treatment on performance].

    Yet I still do not see how an animal having emotions should change how we deal with them, ethically. As I said yesterday, I don't think those that justified their practices by saying "animals don't have emotions" really ever cared if they had emotions or not, they were just trying to say "they're not humans" in order to not piss PETA off. To be honest, we don't base our ethical treatment of each other based on us having emotions either, human rights are usually argued against biological reasons and classifications like the fact that we are indeed all humans and thus should be treated equally.

    I try to respect life, because it seems like the right thing to do. I guess that's a personal ethic of mine, although I'd consider it more of a general principle. I'm aware of how interconnected everything is, but I don't seem to see it as extreme as you do in that it is in constant danger of crashing down. However, I don't see how animal consumption, animal testing, etc is an inherent disrespect to them, and I don't see how animals having emotions is allowed to confer special respect, moreso than a plant or an insect.



  9. #89
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Yet I still do not see how an animal having emotions should change how we deal with them, ethically. As I said yesterday, I don't think those that justified their practices by saying "animals don't have emotions" really ever cared if they had emotions or not, they were just trying to say "they're not humans" in order to not piss PETA off. To be honest, we don't base our ethical treatment of each other based on us having emotions either, human rights are usually argued against biological reasons and classifications like the fact that we are indeed all humans and thus should be treated equally.

    I try to respect life, because it seems like the right thing to do. I guess that's a personal ethic of mine, although I'd consider it more of a general principle. I'm aware of how interconnected everything is, but I don't seem to see it as extreme as you do in that it is in constant danger of crashing down. However, I don't see how animal consumption, animal testing, etc is an inherent disrespect to them, and I don't see how animals having emotions is allowed to confer special respect, moreso than a plant or an insect.
    Of course it's disrespectful, but that's not your argument. Your argument is that the having of emotions or a capacity for suffering is not a legitimate basis for respect.
    I would have to concur. After all, an animal won't think twice about exploiting another species as a resource, why should we?

    I agree with the reasoning, but not with the consequences.

    Compassion doesn't have to be rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Of course it's disrespectful, but that's not your argument. Your argument is that the having of emotions or a capacity for suffering is not a legitimate basis for respect.
    I would have to concur. After all, an animal won't think twice about exploiting another species as a resource, why should we?

    I agree with the reasoning, but not with the consequences.

    Compassion doesn't have to be rational.
    I suppose so. I think you can respect an animal's place in terms of humanity's use for them, and still actually use them responsibly, but if someone calls that disrespectful I certainly can understand why.

    I avoid using the "natural" argument because she considers it a fallacy, and a bad reason, which I don't really understand but I can see that I won't really get to any further understanding using those arguments, so I've tried to work my way around it.



Similar Threads

  1. [NT] How do you feel about emotional appeal as a persuasive method?
    By Babybop in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 121
    Last Post: 09-19-2016, 06:11 PM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-28-2008, 05:10 PM
  3. Do you feel embarrassed by your friends house
    By Sona in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 97
    Last Post: 09-13-2007, 10:41 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO