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  1. #41
    Senior Member TSDesigner's Avatar
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    My cockatiel feels pretty much all the human emotions.
    It's very obvious to see.
    It's amazing how much intelligence is packed into that small brain.

  2. #42
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSDesigner View Post
    My cockatiel feels pretty much all the human emotions.
    It's very obvious to see.
    It's amazing how much intelligence is packed into that small brain.
    I don't think intelligence is truly required to experience emotion per se, but I do believe it allows greater possible emotion, though the T/F divide are both going to hate me for saying that XD

    I do mean it in a very particular way though; intelligence is pattern recognition essentially... with the added benefit of more useful memory management.

    This can mean that yeu A: remember more stuff so can combine emotions easier, and B: can relate emotions to more abstract concepts.

    An example of the former, would be if yeu had someone die, and a month later, another important someone died as well... it'd hit yeu even harder due to how recent the previous one was; a dog may be limited to their grief due to a shorter memory. On the other hand, dogs have also been shown to be capable of extended predjudices; if a dog gets abused repeatedly by black people in a bad neighbourhood, and gets rescued later by white people, the dog will still experience ingrained fear as soon as it sees a black person. It's not like the dog's "truely" racist, but it definately can see cause and effect after repeated attempts. Were the reverse to occur, with whites as the 'evil' ones, the same thing would occur. A goldfish would have a hard time making this kind of connection due to restrictive memory capacity.

    An example for the latter, would be that we are capable of fearing death even when it's not imminent. If yeu put an animal in a situation where it's life is in DIRECT jeapordy, it will be scared. However, humans have the annoying habit of being able to imagine abstract concepts, such as DEATH, non existance, lack of ever existing again, and as such, can become saturated with fear long term; ghengis khan was HORRIFIED over the idea of death, and would take injections, medicines, shamanistic healing, and someone told him that sex is a great way to stay immortal so he also had something like 1000ish illigitimate heirs it's been estimated... So... yeah. Without the capacity for abstract reasoning though, a dog can't have the fear of god without being able to grasp the concept of god.

  3. #43
    Senior Member TSDesigner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I don't think intelligence is truly required to experience emotion
    I didn't say that at all. I just meant there's a lot of brain power packed into the small size of a cockatiel's head, including things like emotions, intelligence, and flying ability. A lot of mental capabilities are in there.

  4. #44
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSDesigner View Post
    I didn't say that at all. I just meant there's a lot of brain power packed into the small size of a cockatiel's head, including things like emotions, intelligence, and flying ability. A lot of mental capabilities are in there.
    Oh good enough! I figured yeu were trying to imply a connected order, as yeu stated several things in a row, and I mistakenly assumed they were supposed to be related XD

    My bad ^^

  5. #45
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Question: Do animals feel emotions?

    Answer: Yes! I just asked Mr. Pinkles and he said "yes". I can tell what he thinks from the way he looks at me when I pick him up. Mr. Pinkles is a 2 year old Scotch Terrier. My rabbit Thumpkins also concurs that animals have feelings. I can ask any other animals you like to confirm or deny that they have feelings.



    The only person I know who has said definitively that animals (including dogs) don't have feelings is my INTP brother who thinks he is the Dog Whisperer and makes his dogs do stupid needless tricks to show them he is the alpha dog.

    I think animals are definitely capable of feelings, particularly the more intelligent mammals.

    I consider fear a feeling and I think animals have to be able to feel this for basic survival. I think animals also feel affection. Some people say that dogs cannot "love" their owners and they are merely loyal but I think there is more than just pack mentality going on.

    I also anthropomorphize animals. I remember in the 5th grade myself and 2 other children (probably future "feelers" ha) were horrified to see a mother mouse looking for her babies in their glass case. The babies had just been fed to a snake during a demonstration in our nature camp. I admonished the camp counselor who did the demonstration and said, "Look, she's looking for her babies now!" and the counselor just chuckled like that was unlikely but humored me by saying, "Maybe she is."
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  6. #46
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    Okay I guess you are right, I probably should of broke it down even further.

    The simplest def would probably be emotion - ability to feel positive, or negative. love, or the opposite of love.
    Happy and sad was kind of branched off from their roots. So there, you were right, I was kind of wrong, and partly right because happy/sad still applies. Are you happy now? I really hope so. I think you are holding a grudge against me, and honestly it wasn't anything personal before, was just calling it as I see it, but you seemed to take it very personally and I'm sorry if you got butthurt about it.
    Not that you can respond at the mo', but, I'm sure you're trolling the forums and since this is open access area, and mostly for my own vindication, and cuz I find these turn of events hilarious.......I'll 'reply'.

    I'm not holding a grudge against you, I just pointed out to you, your persona as I saw it, from the first time I interacted with you...truth is harsh, but, it's the truth. At most, carrying on a convo with you was like swatting a pest.

    The first ever interaction with you, I predicted to some others two things: (1) You are screwed in the head, (2) You will get banned soon.



    [hope you come back with a better outlook...sheesh]

  7. #47
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    All it takes is simple observation, like your example. It doesn't take a whole essay to see that they do have emotions. If people don't have the ability to recognize this, I think there is something seriously wrong with them themselves.

    This is an attempt to rationalize and over analyze something utterly simple.
    Amen. I read no further.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  8. #48
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post

    I think animals are definitely capable of feelings, particularly the more intelligent mammals.
    Emotion is much older on the evolutionary scale than intelligence.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The scientific community thought for years that they didn't. Anthropomorphism was considered done only by laymen who didn't know any better. These days, it is a hot subject in the behavioralist community. Though anthropomorphism is still shunned, it is believed that animals probably do experience emotions, but it isn't sure as to how they experience it. If you see how different it is already for the 16 MBTI types, I'm sure it's even more of a gap with animals. Since we cannot ask, it's hard to gauge how strong they feel something and especially, how they experience it.

    I know that for instance, mere pain, which is one of the most basic experiences for most organisms, gives a bucketload of emotions for humans (sadness, frustration, aggression, self-pity, etc etc). Those apparently come from our frontal lobes. However, a cat has underdeveloped frontal lobes in comparison to us. It is therefore hypothesized that emotions such as self-pity (complex emotions) are non-existant in a cat, though the animal most likely does experience a range of other emotions.

    And then there's the task of figuring out the emotional state of every species, and then, every individual, as with humans. Not an easy task. It seems that elephants come close to the emotional depth humans can experience, though that too is still a theory. They have a tight community, and need that emotional stability to grow up into healthy adults. I remember seeing a documentary about baby elephants being seperated from their elders, because they were being moved to a sanctuary. Unfortunatley they didn't have the technology to move the parents with. Years later, those elephant babies were causing trouble, killing rhino's. Basically, a bunch of teenagers running amok. They then were able to introduce older animals and they immediately calmed down, as they no longer had the stress to 'run' the herd. They had once more older animals to guide them.

    Also, some elephant babies who say their mothers killed by humans, become human killers later on, because of the trauma they experienced.

    It is really a fascinating topic, one I hope to follow in the scientific community in the years to come.
    Very insightful!

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    All it takes is simple observation, like your example. It doesn't take a whole essay to see that they do have emotions. If people don't have the ability to recognize this, I think there is something seriously wrong with them themselves.

    This is an attempt to rationalize and over analyze something utterly simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Amen. I read no further.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I
    The word emotions include how we feel to physical but also emotional states... Physcial pan is a very different experience to emotional pain... the former has no memory, the latter has a huge memory (berevment pain can last several years and sometimes never heals).

    People with good emotional health (the etherial) ommit possitive information into their environement, people in poor emotional state, ommit their bad vibes but also absorbe anything lighter in order for them to attempt to get balance. The good energy can be absorbed from plants or animals, but also from colours and light etc....

    The collective consiousness is achieved through emotional ehters of a large number of people vibing to what ever is the latest collective. Ie swine flu, one person gets anxious about it, which causes their family and friends to pick up that anxiety, which causes their friends etc etc - so you end up with wide spread anxiety.

    so back to the OP yes I do think that animals have emotions and there is exchange between every living thing (inc plants) with each other at an emotional level.... but then we don't understand emotions very well so it may be extremly subtle.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I don't see why they wouldn't. What is an emotion besides a chemical event that is designed to stimulate a response? Emotions, as a function of the human body and mind, evolved from somewhere, so I don't think it's that bizarre to think that emotions are present, however in a less complex and deep form, in other organisms. The increase in emotional range, understanding, and processes I would think mirrors that of the increased cognitive ability of our minds as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    When a scared dog goes and hides you know that the emotion of fear within them is concious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    Yes, I think most animals feel emotions. (I would have a hard time arguing that an ant or termite has the ability to feel sad/happy, but then, we don't know much at all about ants or termites...we usually just want them destroyed. ) But I don't think they, generally, understand or feel the same complexity of emotions has humans.

    And I agree with Amargith about elephants probably having the emotional capabilities closest to humans. I've seen documentaries of elephants mourning their dead and revisting known gravesites of fallen herd members in much the same way we humans revist the graves of our dead family members.

    But a less exotic example would be the way dogs have a way of picking up on our emotional states and reflecting them back to us, which could suggest some level of empathic abilities (and an important ability for creatures to live in packs and social groups). If I am angry, my dog becomes angry and is on the alert for anything that could be going on to endanger us. Unfortunately, she doesn't understand that humans can become angry because of stuff that happened hours or days ago. This also works the other way around: If there's a thunderstorm and my dog is frightened, she will become calm if she is in the room with me and I am calm.


    Oh, and those rats supposedly laughing are adorable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewitter27 View Post
    I'd say some do, some don't. It depends on how developed the brain is. I'd say that mammals can, at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by persianness View Post
    My family and I own a dozen kittens (apparently). It's also our first to keep pets, so we've been watchful at the way they behave - and they behave very much normally with their distinguished potentials as you see with people.

    ... So, I would think animals have emotion as much as human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    "Animals"

    Well, most certainly most animals do. Mammals, fish, they all have emotions of fear, survival, hunger, etc, etc.

    Even some plantlife has emotions, such as touch. Particularly trapping anemone's and carnivorous plants.
    Quote Originally Posted by TSDesigner View Post
    My cockatiel feels pretty much all the human emotions.
    It's very obvious to see.
    It's amazing how much intelligence is packed into that small brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Question: Do animals feel emotions?

    Answer: Yes! I just asked Mr. Pinkles and he said "yes". I can tell what he thinks from the way he looks at me when I pick him up. Mr. Pinkles is a 2 year old Scotch Terrier. My rabbit Thumpkins also concurs that animals have feelings. I can ask any other animals you like to confirm or deny that they have feelings.



    The only person I know who has said definitively that animals (including dogs) don't have feelings is my INTP brother who thinks he is the Dog Whisperer and makes his dogs do stupid needless tricks to show them he is the alpha dog.
    I was going to wait for a bit more responses, but...what the heck........

    So, the majority (seems all, except an anecdotal story of Cze Cze's INTP bro) of the responses on this thread believe that animals have emotions, and it is not merely humans projecting it on them.

    They may not process it as we do. This doesn't negate the presence.

    Human sadness, monkey sadness, pig sadness. Human joy, monkey joy, pig joy. Maybe it's a matter of degree. Or, maybe, just maybe, it is the limitations of perspective that stops us from interpreting what and how other species experience emotion. We can't help but tie our ego and self-orientation to how we view the world. We are afterall, not above it, we're still one of nature's animals. Except for ONE THING, we as humans, as evidenced by our responses, have...metacognition. We can AIM to put ourselves into other's shoes, the abstract mind, that all other animals are not as 'lucky' to have.

    Einstein once said, 'there are things in this world that counts, but, cannot be counted, and there are things that can be counted but does not count' [or something to that effect]

    Evidence has limitations due to the interpreter.

    It wasn't long ago that doctors thought premies and newborns weren't developed yet to experience pain.

    Easing baby's suffering - Haaretz - Israel News

    Nonetheless, many circumcisions are performed without any anesthesia. This disregard for the pain of infants was also widespread in the medical world up until recent years.

    "Babies were operated on without anesthesia," according to Dr. Shaul Dollberg, director of the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit of the Dana Children's Hospital at the Tel Aviv Medical Center. "They only induced paralysis (without sedation) and that's why the babies didn't cry. They did this under the assumption that the babies didn't feel pain. If we had inserted a tube into the windpipe of a 10-year-old child without anesthesia, he would have gone wild, but what can an 800-gram premature baby do?"
    ***********

    So, to those who agree that it is an obvious and trite question to ask, whether animals feel emotions...........how do you support this view in your everyday approach to life, given our one-up of metacognition?

    Are you all vegans? Do you wear leather? Have you ever killed a bug cuz it was just lounging in your home? Do you ostracize or even think of the animals on the other side of the 'looking glass' and their experiences - in pet stores, circuses, zoos, man-made animal safaris, 'sea world'/aquariums, animal farms, fur farms, tv/movies with use of animals, look for make-ups not tested on animals, hunting, fishing, etc, etc.? Do you own exotic pets?

    Have you ever looked into an animal's eyes, and understood to the core, the same way you did when you looked into the eyes of a human in pain?

    And, the blurry side of the line, animal research for medical/science purposes?

    What is your justification for actively and/or passively affecting the emotional life of these beings if they are not a direct threat to you?

    If we did it to another human being, causing emotional and/or physical harm with an intent to benefit ourselves at the cost of another.....it's a

    And, if we can recognize emotion in these beings, what allows us (you) to still cause them intentional harm?

  10. #50
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post

    So, the majority (seems all, except an anecdotal story of Cze Cze's INTP bro) of the responses on this thread believe that animals have emotions, and it is not merely humans projecting it on them.
    No I think they are independant and not project (however if they are projecting, they are still experiencing empathy), but I also beleive all living this have emotions but we as humans don't nessesarily identify or hear them.

    I don't beleive their is any very firm right answers here because as a specices we are not that well developed to really undrstand emotional states in any great depth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Are you all vegans? Have you ever killed a bug cuz it was just lounging in your home? Do you ostracize pet stores, circuses, zoos, man-made animal safaris, 'sea world'/aquariums, animal farms, fur farms, tv/movies with use of animals, look for make-ups not tested on animals, hunting, fishing, etc, etc.? Do you own exotic pets?

    And, the blurry side of the line, animal research for medical/science purposes?
    I'm pretty carniverous, don't have any issues eating meat or vegitables either. It's natrual and I'd say pretty nessesary for people eat meat. As I said previously I also think vegitables have an emotional plaine too.

    As for animal testing - for cosmetic reasons it's appauling - how many colours of lipsticks do the world vain population need. For drug development greyer area, but yes I think that is ultimately OK. I'd challenge/have challenged the perception of people who go "gosh don't test drugs on animals - and I'd never take a drug that has been tested..." with a question, you fall feignt, and wake up in hospital to be told you had insuline dependant diabetes. Are you going to choose to live or die... Isuline was tested on animals.

    I get into a moral grey area when you get into gene therapy, I have concerns over generational impact.

    but this has gone quite substantially off the subject - which was do animals have emos...

    Yes I think they do - experienced independant of humans (although they can respond to those) - does that stop me eating them - no.

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