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  1. #61
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I mean when people say that morals have nothing to do with religion, they're making a technical error, because the way we use the word in everyday conversation would suggest they're right, but when you research the word you'll find that morals by definition come from God and are taught through the church.

    It's just being picky though because when using the everyday definition of it I'd agree with Night.
    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Ok. So how does the way we use the word today differ from what you believe to be the definition that God gave it? What is the definition as you understand it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Well as a Christian I believe we're all created in the image of God, so I believe everyone, when being "moral" is doing it because they understand intuitively the "good/right" thing. (Lewis notes that when people get ticked when they are cut in line or whatever happened, they don't argue that they broke the rules, they argue that the other person wronged them, i.e. we all have the moral compass inside of us.)

    Basically the internal moral compass, IMO, is from God anyway, but in others' opinion, is biological (which I agree with too)/from their own self/whatever. What's the difference, really?
    When asked to support your claim that morals are, by definition, from god you simply restate your beliefs with the evidence that this is the Christian view. If I am an atheist I do not believe in god, therefore I do not believe he created morals, therefore it is silly to use this as an argument against an atheist as right off the bat he doesnt agree with the initial premise.

    Lets try again. ;D

    "Research the word [and] you'll find that morals by definition come from God and are taught through the church"

    What research should I be doing? I really do want to know, as many Christians seem to agree with this "atheists arent moral" thing.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  2. #62
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    The arguments of the OP seem very straight-forward and simple.

    Final conclusion: A person who eats babies was initially well aware that eating babies is wrong, but as a result of a great, internal moral struggle, he changed his mind. A person who once believed in God also knew that atheism was wrong, but also as a resutl of a great, internal moral struggle, he changed his mind.

    Hence, the atheist is just like a baby-eater. He stops believing in what is true and begins believing into what is false because of his internal moral struggles.

    This is an inadequate

    Many people who are atheists now did not become atheists because they underwent a great internal moral struggle. Some were never believers in the first place and many of those who were believers to begin with lost their faith for a different reason.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #63
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The arguments of the OP seem very straight-forward and simple.

    Final conclusion: A person who eats babies was initially well aware that eating babies is wrong, but as a result of a great, internal moral struggle, he changed his mind. A person who once believed in God also knew that atheism was wrong, but also as a resutl of a great, internal moral struggle, he changed his mind.

    Hence, the atheist is just like a baby-eater. He stops believing in what is true and begins believing into what is false because of his internal moral struggles.

    This is an inadequate

    Many people who are atheists now did not become atheists because they underwent a great internal moral struggle. Some were never believers in the first place and many of those who were believers to begin with lost their faith for a different reason.

    2. As much as most believers would want to deny this, they are much less confident in their belief that God exists tha
    Uh oh. SolitaryWalker just blue-screened again.
    *thump thump*
    Can someone report this bug to Microsoft?
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    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #64
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    How can you debunk something that doesn't assert anything?

  5. #65
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of the Damned View Post
    How can you debunk something that doesn't assert anything?
    Atheists assert that god doesnt exist?
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  6. #66
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Well as a Christian I believe we're all created in the image of God, so I believe everyone, when being "moral" is doing it because they understand intuitively the "good/right" thing. (Lewis notes that when people get ticked when they are cut in line or whatever happened, they don't argue that they broke the rules, they argue that the other person wronged them, i.e. we all have the moral compass inside of us.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nancynobullets View Post
    When asked to support your claim that morals are, by definition, from god you simply restate your beliefs with the evidence that this is the Christian view. If I am an atheist I do not believe in god, therefore I do not believe he created morals, therefore it is silly to use this as an argument against an atheist as right off the bat he doesnt agree with the initial premise.

    Lets try again. ;D

    "Research the word [and] you'll find that morals by definition come from God and are taught through the church"

    What research should I be doing?
    I would like to know as well. Was Cicero a Christian?

    I guess my confusion is in that Usehername originally suggested that the Christian definition of morals was the true definition, but that the secular version was on par with ethics, the two apparently being very different. I'm still not sure what saying the difference is, although I think it was later suggested that there wasn't really any difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Basically the internal moral compass, IMO, is from God anyway, but in others' opinion, is biological (which I agree with too)/from their own self/whatever. What's the difference, really?
    I think there's a big one. Where is the moral compass of a sociopath? How does religion account for the fact that certain relationships and life experiences literally help to form certain areas in our brains that prompt us to be more, or less, pro-social("moral" or "ethical")?

    If religion asserts that all people are evil anyway, what use is there in attempting to understand why people do the things that they do? A good example is the preacher in the video explaining evil by using the young baby reaching out for his watch. Clearly, that man had no understanding of children or how children learn(or how they survive). Further, he likely didn't care to know either, as he had already made his mind up in identifying the child's actions as evil(per his biblical understanding). His "proof" being that a young baby persisted in attempting to look at his shiny watch, even after he grabbed the child's hand and redirected him/her. Further, it didn't even occur to this man that perhaps the real evil was in his persistently, and very much knowingly, tempting a young curious infant with a shiny watch in the first place.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    ^ I know you know that I'm steering away from the original argument. I just want to get to the roots of where personal ethos come from. Surely it wouldn't pop up in your mind from out of nowhere.
    It comes from the social environment and one's appraisal/judgements and reactions to it.

    And for the record, L was INTP .

  8. #68
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancynobullets View Post
    When asked to support your claim that morals are, by definition, from god you simply restate your beliefs with the evidence that this is the Christian view. If I am an atheist I do not believe in god, therefore I do not believe he created morals, therefore it is silly to use this as an argument against an atheist as right off the bat he doesnt agree with the initial premise.

    Lets try again. ;D

    "Research the word [and] you'll find that morals by definition come from God and are taught through the church"

    What research should I be doing? I really do want to know, as many Christians seem to agree with this "atheists arent moral" thing.
    Your last line doesn't even make sense.

    I never said atheists aren't moral. In fact, I stated the exact opposite. I believe atheists are more often than not moral individuals (when using the colloquial definition of today's age).

    I asserted that the linguistic definition originated from the church to refer to something purely theological. Read closer.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #69
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    I would like to know as well. Was Cicero a Christian?

    I guess my confusion is in that you originally suggested that the Christian definition of morals was the true definition, but that the secular version was on par with ethics, the two apparently being very different. I'm still not sure what you're saying the difference is, although I think you later suggested that there wasn't really any difference.


    I think there's a big one. Where is the moral compass of a sociopath? How does religion account for the fact that certain relationships and life experiences literally help to form certain areas in our brains that prompt us to be more, or less, pro-social("moral" or "ethical")?

    If religion asserts that all people are evil anyway, what use is there in attempting to understand why people do the things that they do? A good example is the preacher in the video explaining evil by using the young baby reaching out for his watch. Clearly, that man had no understanding of children or how children learn(or how they survive). Further, he likely didn't care to know either, as he had already made his mind up in identifying the child's actions as evil(per his biblical understanding). His "proof" being that a young baby persisted in attempting to look at his shiny watch, even after he grabbed the child's hand and redirected him/her. Further, it didn't even occur to this man that perhaps the real evil was in his persistently, and very much knowingly, tempting a young curious infant with a shiny watch in the first place.
    You're arguing against a very specific kind of religion, creating a strawman to represent religious people period. I don't believe in most of the stuff that you've asserted here, and I consider myself quite religious.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #70
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    You're arguing against a very specific kind of religion, creating a strawman to represent religious people period. I don't believe in most of the stuff that you've asserted here, and I consider myself quite religious.
    You said that the internal moral compass comes from God, but I'm still not clear on what your understanding of morals actually is. Or, how it differs from a secular understanding. In briefly researching the word "morals", it appears to have come from Cicero. Where can I find more information?

    In any case, if god gives morals to all people where is the moral compass of a sociopath? Does he give the same amount of morals to everyone? And if he's giving morals to people, why is it the fault of anyone if they happen to get shorted? And how again, would you explain the fact that life experiences literally act in a way on the brain to translate into behaviors that are more, or less, pro-social(or moral, in the secular sense)?
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

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