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  1. #31
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    The authority is law, and social pressures. Without these, which enforce consequences, I really wouldn't be surprised if I saw more atheists eating their babies, murdering people, and raping their women.

    Take a look back in situations like the vietnam war, which is given the OK by your authority (LAW) to murder people and rape women...
    I'd just like to point out a few things.

    The authority is God's law, and religious social pressures. Without these, which enforce consequences, such as excommunication and hell, I really wouldn't be surprised if I saw more christians and other religious people eating their babies, murdering people, and raping their women.

    Take a look back in the bible, which is given the OK by your authority (GOD) to murder people and rape women.



    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 20:10-14


    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus 21:7-11 New Living Testament
    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:13
    If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Judges 11:29-40 NLT

    "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."



    "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith twenty towns and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter his only child ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."


    Et Cetera, Et Cetera, Et Cetera, Ad Nausium.

    The laws of god are no better than the laws of man. And humans, regardless of religion, are capable of horrible acts, except that if yeu have a religion, yeu can claim yeu were told to do so by 'god'.

    I hate quoting myself, but I feel the need to stress this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni
    The 'laws' in the bible and other holy texts are fluid, and change. Yeu may notice that we don't STONE PEOPLE TO DEATH anymore. Yeu may notice that women are allowed to divorce these days. Yeu may even notice that slavery is not even legal anymore.

    There is no 'final reason' or 'absolute authority' that the religious ever had to validate these things... their reasoning was NEVER anything more than a product of the culture within which such originated. If anything, the religious views of right and wrong have even less to do with absolutes than those of an atheist, because they're based on emotion and context, not objective data and logical reasoning.
    Those who are religious, are still human. Nothing more, nothing less. They have the capacity for great good, and great evil. They will do BOTH in the name of whotever law they hold, whotever nation they were born to, whotever god they worship. These things do not matter; people will do horrific stuff.

    Hitler did onto the jews *BECAUSE* he was christian, some of the worst rapes/murders have been because of 'god's plan', there are people picketing marriages based on their religious beliefs, arson, murder, rape, etc.

    These will happen anyway, regardless of religion, my point isn't to say religion's evil or anything, it's to point out that humans are just inherantly capable of these things anyways. If yeu tell them to listen to the word of god, they'll say it was god's word that told them to do it. There is no 'moral high ground', and there is no 'we are more pure because we have religion'. Everyone falls prey to the same things, regardless.

    The second that yeur law lets yeu commit horrible acts, there will be the few who will take it to heart. Most won't, but there'll always be some who will. It doesn't matter if it's man's law, or god's law though. The second yeu say it's alright, they still do the same thing. Having 'faith', does not change this. As much as we'd like to think it does.

  2. #32
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I'd just like to point out a few things.

    The authority is God's law, and religious social pressures. Without these, which enforce consequences, such as excommunication and hell, I really wouldn't be surprised if I saw more christians and other religious people eating their babies, murdering people, and raping their women.

    Take a look back in the bible, which is given the OK by your authority (GOD) to murder people and rape women.
    But no offence, the bible doesn't give an OK to murder and rape, 10 commandments.


    That is exactly my point! I don't take the side of religion! NEITHER do I take the side of atheism! I believe we have to transcend these dualities to gain access to our true inner divinity!

    I agree and disagree with everything you say! I can see both sides of the story!

    In other words I'm anti authoritarian, anything that will suppress the individual from making his own informed decisions are not systems to uphold!
    Atheism might make you think you are somewhat more "FREE" than religious folk, but in actuality you are still answering to something other than yourself (law).

    But then some people might just look at what I say call me an anarchist. Maybe I somewhat am.

  3. #33
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    But no offence, the bible doesn't give an OK to murder and rape, 10 commandments.


    That is exactly my point! I don't take the side of religion! NEITHER do I take the side of atheism! I believe we have to transcend these dualities to gain access to our true inner divinity!

    I agree and disagree with everything you say! I can see both sides of the story!

    In other words I'm anti authoritarian, anything that will suppress the individual from making his own informed decisions are not systems to uphold!
    Atheism might make you think you are somewhat more "FREE" than religious folk, but in actuality you are still answering to something other than yourself (law).

    But then some people might just look at what I say call me an anarchist. Maybe I somewhat am.
    Alright I wasn't 100% sure if yeu meant it that way or not XD

    It was a great leadon to lemme rant though so thanks anyways =3

    That being said though, I do agree. Personal values should be made and understood, not just latching onto society's without even knowing why.

    As for anarchy, not really. Anarchy isn't "no law", but it is "very little group control over yeur life". Yeu may in fact actually be classified as proper anarchist possibly, not sure. hard to tell from this limited clip of conversation.

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    The authority is law, and social pressures. Without these, which enforce consequences, I really wouldn't be surprised if I saw more atheists eating their babies, murdering people, and raping their women.
    I would be.

    Sometimes I wish people would take a step back and look at the garbage they say about other people just based on their religion, race, gender, and otherwise, and realize how ignorant and demeaning they sound.

    Take a look back in situations like the vietnam war, which is given the OK by your authority (LAW) to murder people and rape women...
    Whether or not I'm a fan of Vietnam, I think war is different than acts committed on personal discretion... and while atrocities happened during the war, it was actually the decency of some members of the armed forces who brought My Lai and other horrible acts to the attention of people in a position to discipline the offenders. In this case, some people in authority tried to cover things up; others tried to make up for the wrongdoing.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    In other words I'm anti authoritarian, anything that will suppress the individual from making his own informed decisions are not systems to uphold! Atheism might make you think you are somewhat more "FREE" than religious folk, but in actuality you are still answering to something other than yourself (law).
    I think a lot of us here are the same way, actually, and you are missing that.

    I think also when someone starts dissing one side, people naturally feel compelled to defend their own position because they are feeling criticized. It's usually not a great communicative strategy. If someone told me that because I'm atheist I'd be more prone to cooking and eating my own children, at best I would withdraw from them and at worst I would want to hurt them, badly... not because I like hurting people, but that is just one of the most horrible things I think someone could say to someone else they don't even know personally. Christians took bad raps by being called cannibals by the Romans (due to the communion ritual), and other groups have taken bad raps for centuries because of twisted and cruel moral reasoning such as what appeared in the opening post. It's just pretty twisted stuff.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    This reminds me of Judge Dredd.

    A person who was so stuck on the ruleset, that when things went AWOL (convicted innocently), he was seriously mentally torn, and had to find truth through his own reasoning. Aligning himself once more with Lady Justice, but this time with a firm grasp of knowing why law is good.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #36
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    This reminds me of Judge Dredd.

    A person who was so stuck on the ruleset, that when things went AWOL (convicted innocently), he was seriously mentally torn, and had to find truth through his own reasoning. Aligning himself once more with Lady Justice, but this time with a firm grasp of knowing why law is good.
    Don't remember watching that movie, but the way you summed it up sounds like a good reference to the message I was trying to convey.

  7. #37
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    Don't remember watching that movie, but the way you summed it up sounds like a good reference to the message I was trying to convey.
    It's an awesome action movie! Must see!

    "I AM THE LAW!"
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #38
    Senior Member Kangol's Avatar
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    I was so ready to finally be convinced that there's a God.

    Thanks for the total misnomer, using "smart" like that. Scalliwag.

  9. #39
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Between the Book and the Voice Falls Atheism

    The truth is now we all live in the same bubble. And if you press on one side of the bubble, someone is sure to press on the other side. It's like a meteor hitting the earth - there is the initial crater but on exactly the other side of the Earth, at the antipode, there is an almost equal blast.

    So if you want to make an effect on the other side of the bubble or the other side of the Earth, a good strategy is to take exactly the opposite view of the one you wish to promote. Then the literal minded will come back with the opposing view in the other side of the bubble.

    So in this way distance has been abolished. We all vibrate to the same sounds in our bubble. And we can set up vibrations on the other side of the bubble simply by vibrating in this side.

    And we can elaborate our vibrations into conversations.

    Unfortunately most of us only know how to read an author or be professionally entertained by a celebrity. We have yet learnt to converse.

    Fortunately this medium is not made for passive entertainment or for solitary reading. Like the telephone it demands participation. In this medium, like it or not, we are all participants.

    And all we need to do is to let go our passive, literate habits and participate in the noosphere.

    Unfortunately the God we worship today is the God of the Book, whereas the God of tomorrow is the God of the spoken word. Today we read God. Tomorrow we will hear God.

    Fortunately our deep past is full of the Voice of God, just as our deep future will thrill to the sound of the Voice.

    So atheism today is merely the hiatus between the Book and the Voice.

  10. #40
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    But no offence, the bible doesn't give an OK to murder and rape, 10 commandments.
    Since you can't personify a diverse body of writings by diverse individuals and groups, the Bible doesn't give an OK to rape and murder....however, murder in the name of god saturates the old and new testaments.

    The "10 commandments" outlaw murder and other deviant behavior, but this is just a couple of pages in thousands.

    I agree and disagree with everything you say! I can see both sides of the story!
    Having multiple perspectives is a great way to decipher any mysterious person, place, thing or idea. Good job.

    Atheism might make you think you are somewhat more "FREE" than religious folk, but in actuality you are still answering to something other than yourself (law).

    As an Agnostic atheist/Ignostic/Apathetic agnostic/Model Agnostic, I don't believe. IN ANYTHING. except when I want to, of course. I also don't think, feel or sense in any way that there is any law which is above me, except the law which can physically contain and control me(police, judge, prison).

    And, although I tend to obey most laws, I don't feel compelled to follow the law or play "law-abiding-citizen" games when I think they are wrong or when they don't suit me. Like, for a soft example, when I catch up to a group of cars and there's a cop driving at 45 in a 55, with fifteen people following in a line behind him, scared to go the speed limit, I get in the passing lane and do my usual 60-65mph, past the sheep, past the cop and go on.

    I've noticed that cops do that a lot, I'm guessing it gives them a sense of power or maybe they want to see how many idiots will drive ten miles below the speed limit and for how long.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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