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  1. #1
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Default Campus Aborted Fetus Exposure

    My friend Daniel is another ENFJ. We are still a bit different though.

    When a Pro-Life group went on his community college campus (Sac City), they showed aborted fetus pictures in the quad for all to see. This happened at my school (American River) years ago...I was a part of a Speech Class that debated it during the entire two-hour period.

    Dan loved the shock-methodology of the group. He said they had several people come up to them and told them that seeing the pictures changed their minds about abortion and "choice"; that they could never consider doing it after seeing those pictures.

    When this happened at my school, all I heard was stubborn whining and moaning about how offensive the pictures were and how they should be torn down. People ignored the intended message of the pictures and instead focused on how bad the "religious right" was because they were trying to take away people's decision to "choose". I began to see how such a statement, presented as it was, could cast Christinity in a bad light (they are Christians who run it, but they don't say anything religious unless they are asked; it's not like people don't know though). I didn't care that they had dead fetus pics on campus, quite the contrary, I loved that somebody was trying to spread the truth...I just didn't believe in the open-air shock value--that catching somebody offguard right after lunch, by suprise with those images was wrong on some level.

    When people complained, the group was forced to create a walled partition (American River), so people could walk through and see the pictures, but didn't have to do so if they just walked through the open-air quad where the exhibition was. I think this was waaay more appropriate, but probably only reached the people who were brave enough to go in there--perhaps not the intented audience--women who might consider it, or who are going through an unwanted pregnancy, might not want to look.

    So now I'm thinking about siding with Dan--or at least meeting the people who run this chapter of the organization he is now a part of (and, to which, I've forgotten the name; will edit later).

    So, what do you all think?

    Just a note--I have great sympathy for all rape victims, and people whose developing feti are brain damaged (or otherwise damaged/incapacitated), or when there is a serious health issue involved that will risk the life of the mother. I don't make a judgement call on abortion when such issues arise. Even when that's not the case...
    Love is the point.

  2. #2
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    I think graphic infomation should be mandated to be at abortion clinics (not to impose guilt on the pregnant, but because it's such a final and deep decision that they should know exactly what's happening before they commit) but I'm anti-forcing it on the random public. I like the partitioned walls thing--available to those who voluntarily choose to know.

    Edit: I'm anti-abortion protesting in theory, but I think that the partitioned walls is a very good compromise to honour the protester's legal rights.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I think graphic information should be mandated to be at abortion clinics (not to impose guilt on the pregnant, but because it's such a final and deep decision that they should know exactly what's happening before they commit) but I'm anti-forcing it on the random public. I like the partitioned walls thing--available to those who voluntarily choose to know.
    More apt to lean in this direction.

    I strongly believe that people should be equipped to make informed decisions, especially with something with large emotional and physical ramifications; but I also think there's a lot of un-love, insensitivity, and personal disrespect that occurs when people feel that their stance on a particular issue is morally justified.

    The end doesn't justify the means.

    Despite sharing many Christian beliefs and not favoring abortion as a solution, as a moderate I usually end up being more annoyed by the extremes of behavior, including invasive pro-life stances.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    I usually end up being more annoyed by the extremes of behavior, including invasive pro-life stances.
    Exactly. That's really at the heart of the issue...people behind shock and awe campaigns rarely see the shades of grey. They may hurt more than they help.
    Love is the point.

  5. #5
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I think graphic infomation should be mandated to be at abortion clinics (not to impose guilt on the pregnant, but because it's such a final and deep decision that they should know exactly what's happening before they commit) but I'm anti-forcing it on the random public. I like the partitioned walls thing--available to those who voluntarily choose to know.

    I'm right here ^ with Usehername. I've known a couple of women who made this choice without really being aware of certain grisly details about the procedure, and I can only imagine how difficult it would be to see graphic information about it 'after the fact'. I can't think of any valid reason to impose these images on the public, but I absolutely agree that women should be required to have a complete understanding of the procedure before they go through with one.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #6
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    I'm all for education of those that want to make the decision,y eu should know all the facts if yeu're going to have an operation like that.

    However, I highly disagree on showing it to everyone as well; not everyone has any right to pass judgement on this issue. It's like the catholic priest condemning such, except that he isn't female, isn't married, doesn't have kids, is not allowed to have sex in general, and has absolutely no understanding of whot he's talking about other than from pictures and idealized forms of pretensious belief of good/evil without any practical concepts to back them up.

    Not everyone should have to see such, especially those who seriously have no say in the matter. If yeu're A: not a woman, or B: not intending to ever get pregnant, then yeu have no say in this matter, and yeur opinion seriously has no impact.

    Or at least it shouldn't.

    The thing is, this kind of 'shock' treatment isn't really aimed at the people who's opinions matter. It's aimed at the people who don't, and tries to stress sensationalism over actual understanding.

    It's an important thing to understand, yeu have to understand WHOT is being done, though "it won't be alive anymore" is pretty much the end result either way, so those that have decided to go that route, generally won't be swayed since they already knew that part.

    Anyways... a full understanding is required, sensationalism is not understanding. This kind of campaign is solely focused on emotional response, not logical thought; it has no place in important decision making. People who toss around crap like this are the ones who kill their message, especially if it's an important one. The only ones they truly rally to their side are the fanatics and the emotionally insecure. Go yeu, yeu have a bunch of weak willed, and whiney brats, and some who are boarderline psychotic, and the rest are fanatics who picket funerals. Wonderful lineup yeu're accumulating there.

    The ones who argue the intrinsic rights of life, unborn or not, get rational minded people who know WTH they're talking about. I can at least respect their position, even if I may not agree with it fully.

    The extremists should really just shut up though, they're not helping anyone.

  7. #7
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post

    Not everyone should have to see such, especially those who seriously have no say in the matter. If yeu're A: not a woman, or B: not intending to ever get pregnant, then yeu have no say in this matter, and yeur opinion seriously has no impact.

    Or at least it shouldn't.
    I disagree. It makes me highly uncomfortable to think that the father might desperately want the child, but yet is expected to be alright with the mother choosing to abort because it's her body. (Not that any laws should change, just the cultural mores.)

    IMO, if it was consensual sex and the guy wants the baby badly (say, to the point that he's willing to sign away everything he's worth that if she carries his child he'll be 100% accountable for it), the cultural expectation should be for the woman to carry the baby so the guy can raise it. Yes, it very well might damage the woman's career or plans and likely negatively impact her, but if her sex participation was voluntary, she should deal with the repercussions of her choices and not literally destroy the guy's baby if he wants it. It's not like he can carry his kid.

    That said, I'm still pro-choice with legal matters.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #8
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    They came through my campus, too. People were all shocked and shit.

    Their argument is mostly pathos. In that regard it does not really address the mostly logical philosophical debate. And although I've seen enough *shock value* crap to not be influenced too much, I can't help but wonder how many of our leaders (and future leaders!) are going to be persuaded by it.

    I personally am pro-choice, but if I discovered proponents of my "side" were using these kinds of *shock value* dollar fifty bullshit I would be quite annoyed.

  9. #9
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Rhino, what logic can you apply to the philosophical argument? Do you think of philosophy like a science; the current mores actually defining the unseen?
    Who are you to judge emotion to be less valuable than logic! How can you be logical over the value of human life? Logic cannot comprehend it, but emotions can. If somebody out there would like the baby and can take good care of it, why destroy it? There are plenty of couples out there who are sterile and can't give birth.
    Love is the point.

  10. #10
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Should soldiers not be shown pictures of bodies burned with white phosphorous?

    Do you want to have the benefits of a choice, but remain ignorant of the actual consequences of that choice?

    To refuse to look at those pictures is intellectually craven.

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