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  1. #1
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Default The dark side of modesty/tact.

    I've wondered casually about this before, but never really put much thought in it. Which is odd, because it's really a quite intruiging subject.

    Modesty (Tact) is commonly accepted as a good and fair trade to ones skills. Yet modesty in itself implies that the honest true underlying thoughts are merely being surpressed and sugar coated. And thus, the skill of modesty is nothing more than deception. A way to cover up truth. A widely accepted and appreciated method of lying.

    To be modest is to project your thoughts in more subtle and generally nice ways.

    But why is it so appreciated then, specifically in relationships? No one enjoys being lied too. Everyone wants people to tell the truth. Yet when one modestly coats it with the term modesty, it's all fun and flowers.

    Is it a mere matter of perception, or are people truely that easily decepted by what they're told and taught. That common knowledge about modesty being a good thing is enough for them to accept it so?

    If interested, I am not a modest person. Except when dealing with customers and from a business point of view, when I see that being modest is rewarding. Whereas on a more personal level, and the most personal level being a monogamous relationship. I would not dare to fall for modesty. I would not dare to fraud and deceit the way I do around the common consumer.

    edit: Revised, Modesty -> Tact.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #2
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Do you mean tact?

  3. #3
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Tact, modesty. They seem to go hand in hand in my experience.

    Both exist solely to dim down ones opinions and thoughts.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #4
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Very different words, different meanings.

    Well ... tact makes the truth more palatable. It's not that you lie; it's that you make the truth easier to hear. You make some effort to respect the other person's ego, self-image, help them save face, etc.

    It's a valuable social skill. One of these days I will learn it. :-D I admire people to whom it comes naturally.

  5. #5
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Like I said, when I'm in my 'work mode'. Modesty, tact, all come very easy to me. Because I don't have a problem with using it. But on a personal level. I do feel troubled using it. In fact, it seems to go right against my sense of honesty and integrity. And I refrain from using it. If I seem blunt or even unlikable to others it is a sacrifice I am very willing to take. Without hesitation.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #6
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Maybe you're more tactful than you think, naturally? You don't seem insensitive at all.

  7. #7
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I don't think I'm insensitive. I don't think modesty and tact is about sensitivity at all. Well, it's about the sensitivity of others. But not your own sensitivity.

    In fact, I think I'm more sensitive for telling people what I truely think regardless of repurcussions, rather than sugarcoat it in order to get more desired effects.


    Like the ancient, and very lame, scenario of the wife asking the husband if she looks fat for example. Now, for me personally, it would not be an issue, but suppose she is on the fat side, or wears cloths that I find are just a bit too tight or whatever, I'm not gonna say she looks perfect, but rather that she may want to put on something that fits her butt a bit better. Hey, I'm only helping her with that, no? It's not like I would love her less, or anything like that. Suppose I'd say she looks good in it. I would feel like I am deceiving her.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #8
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Keep in mind Tilty, NTs consider all sugar-coating as falsehood--they would rather us be openly ambitious, then falsy modest.

    Though I will say Fluff, there is a slight difference between actual modesty and the "modesty" you are describing.

    Real modesty means that you actually understand that you are "only" a piece of the puzzle, a cog in a bigger machine, a chunk of the mountain; you might be a very improtant piece, cog, or chunk, and without you there may not be a complete picture, a functioning machine, or an upright mountain--it's important to understand your own importance, especially in a position of leadership, but I think true humility is found--not in being self-depreciating, but in recognizing others and elevating them for their support/accomplishments along side of you.

    Self-deprecation is false humility. Acting like you do less than you do or acting less important than you are when it's time to be recognized is actually pride in disguise (most of the time; if you're an NF, you may be looking to avoid stepping on other people's toes), trying to milk the moment to portray a false image of humility, which is actually recognition in itself.

    So yes. NF are emotionally deceptive. To all NTs who don't understand why NFs are that way--try having a heart sometime, see what lengths you go through to avoid being hurt and hurting others with the same organ. No offense...not that I actually need to say it.
    Love is the point.

  9. #9
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    One way I think of it: Modesty is only telling people things they are interested in. If say my accomplishments/qualifications are not relevant to the situation, then I do not need to share.

  10. #10
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Keep in mind Tilty, NTs consider all sugar-coating as falsehood--they would rather us be openly ambitious, then falsy modest.

    Though I will say Fluff, there is a slight difference between actual modesty and the "modesty" you are describing.

    Real modesty means that you actually understand that you are "only" a piece of the puzzle, a cog in a bigger machine, a chunk of the mountain; you might be a very improtant piece, cog, or chunk, and without you there may not be a complete picture, a functioning machine, or an upright mountain--it's important to understand your own importance, especially in a position of leadership, but I think true humility is found--not in being self-depreciating, but in recognizing others and elevating them for their support/accomplishments along side of you.

    Self-deprecation is false humility. Acting like you do less than you do or acting less important than you are when it's time to be recognized is actually pride in disguise (most of the time; if you're an NF, you may be looking to avoid stepping on other people's toes), trying to milk the moment to portray a false image of humility, which is actually recognition in itself.

    So yes. NF are emotionally deceptive. To all NTs who don't understand why NFs are that way--try having a heart sometime, see what lengths you go through to avoid being hurt and hurting others with the same organ. No offense...not that I actually need to say it.

    Like the ancient, and very lame, scenario of the wife asking the husband if she looks fat for example. Now, for me personally, it would not be an issue, but suppose she is on the fat side, or wears cloths that I find are just a bit too tight or whatever, I'm not gonna say she looks perfect, but rather that she may want to put on something that fits her butt a bit better. Hey, I'm only helping her with that, no? It's not like I would love her less, or anything like that. Suppose I'd say she looks good in it. I would feel like I am deceiving her.
    I just learned something today! All NFs would benefit from honest tact. Teach me, oh wise wolf of the North! How the hell do you do that? We don't want to lie, we just don't know how to tell the truth!
    Love is the point.

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