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  1. #41
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Now, as to the example of the fat wife. I have been married. If I ask my husband if I look fat and he says yes, he has accomplished nothing except my cold shoulder for a few days, until I convince myself that I am desirable again. Weigh this carefully, so to speak. How much do you like sex? You see what I'm saying?
    But why even ask the question then? If you want your husband to tell you that you are beautiful, you should just tell him to say that. I'm seriously not getting this... Wouldn't you want your husband to save you from potential embarrassment?

  2. #42
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Because "Fat" in that context doesn't always mean adipose tissue, it's often a metaphor for undesirable, unworthy, unattractive, lazy, greedy, stupid, out of control, weak.

    I assume the woman wants reassurance that she is none of those things.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  3. #43
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Default [This post is via my PSP - so please excuse mistypos if any.]

    The issue of modesty? Well, put it this way - normally every person have an awareness (mutually) to what the Truth really is, which as we know it for this world is not one to face with real confidence. You can do so much but the world never really makes one any more satisfied with that Truth - so to speak of modesty, it really is one of the most appropriate ways of dealing around that Truth.

    ... So, I would think that the attitude to modesty varies across person to person.

  4. #44
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    well it's because the truth can hurt, so if I go around telling everyone I know more about something than them then it's only going to make them hate me.

    So it all depends on the person, if they can handle the truth without hating the hurt.
    I agree the truth can hurt. But I feel very strongly that these kinds of pain are important. And sheltering people from it is, to me, the same as disrespecting their 'entire being'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    "Modesty is a flower that does not grow in every garden."

    -Ralph Quinn (my brilliant friend and comrade)

    ***NOTE: As per Ralph, you can substitute any "Virtue" for "Modesty" above and nullify its existence with a puzzling amount of tact.

    That is all.



    -Halla
    Hah yes, but that would basicly mean you are manipulative. That wouldn't work very well with my conscience.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But why even ask the question then? If you want your husband to tell you that you are beautiful, you should just tell him to say that. I'm seriously not getting this... Wouldn't you want your husband to save you from potential embarrassment?
    That's just it, I can't find any reason that justifies dishonesty. Dishonesty in order to gain affection even feels like a form of (mild) rape to me. I just can't accept it, not in a relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Because "Fat" in that context doesn't always mean adipose tissue, it's often a metaphor for undesirable, unworthy, unattractive, lazy, greedy, stupid, out of control, weak.

    I assume the woman wants reassurance that she is none of those things.
    I don't have ulterior motives in a relationship. Being honest does not mean saying one thing while it may mean something else. My partner should never assume I have ulterior motives and if she finds my reasoning questionable she should just ask me about it. However, the fact that "Fat" may mean other things is not a reason for me not to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by persianness View Post
    The issue of modesty? Well, put it this way - normally every person have an awareness (mutually) to what the Truth really is, which as we know it for this world is not one to face with real confidence. You can do so much but the world never really makes one any more satisfied with that Truth - so to speak of modesty, it really is one of the most appropriate ways of dealing around that Truth.

    ... So, I would think that the attitude to modesty varies across person to person.
    I agree that truth, being subjective, is not something to go lightly about. But ultimatly it is important to me to be as close to the truth as I am capable of. But it is also important not to get stuck up on truth without seeing all sides to it. Because you may inadvertedly burn yourself badly with it. That is to say, always try to look at it from all perspectives. But entirely ignoring it is no option. If the truth is just shrouded in mystery. A middleground may still be found. But if you are to question truth always, you might as well say nothing at all. And that wouldn't be very productive either. You have an identity, you have a sense of truth. You base it on your life's experiences and thoughts and you should be able to trust that truth.



    That said, I don't claim to always be right. And that honesty is infallable. Because I am not, and it isn't. But I am as right as possible to my abilties. And if I am proven to be wrong, I aim to rectify it and learn from it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #45
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Interesting topic and an issue I often have myself, with relationships in general.


    It's about being impartial as much as I can, and being coherent with everything I say. If I'm honest with someone I'm not close to, why be dishonest with someone I'm sharing a supposedly deeper, special bond with? To keep that person? Just feels like another form of lying to me.

    Sure. Being tactful. I try to be, depending on the case. But when asked a direct question people can smell lying or doubt a mile away ya know?


    Besides, no matter how tactful you are, like INTJ123 said, the truth often hurts.


    I've learned long ago, no one appreciates 100% honesty. So I ignore and aim at the crux of the problem. Which is often self-confidence or lack thereof.



    I often feel this is one of those Fe vs Fi battles. Fe would have me put the importance of being honest "in prespective" so as to keep harmony. Fi would aim for coherence and truth. I just happen to like my Fi a lot.

  6. #46
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think I killed off my Fe.

    I only use a chameleon form of Fe in business and such places. But I would not dare to chameleon it in a personal relationships. For starters, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was doing that. And even for business I go about faking Fe very carefully.

    And I think my real Fe died 8 years ago. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #47
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post

    I assume the woman wants reassurance that she is none of those things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    However, the fact that "Fat" may mean other things is not a reason for me not to be honest.
    I guess my point is that "fat" shouldn't mean other things. In fact, I would be so resentful that *I* was being lied to and baited with such an inane question that I would purposely tell a harder version of the truth out of pure contempt. Basically, I would repay dishonesty with dishonesty to prove a point in a situation like that.

    In a situation where the person is just honestly curious, they shouldn't ask unless they want to know. Or at least ask the question framed positively, rather than negatively... instead of "Do I look fat in this?" you could easily say "Is this outfit ok on me?", in which case an honest response could be "meh, you look better naked".

  8. #48
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    But I would not dare to chameleon it in a personal relationships. For starters, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was doing that.
    I feel you. Find yourself an NT partner.

  9. #49
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I guess my point is that "fat" shouldn't mean other things. In fact, I would be so resentful that *I* was being lied to and baited with such an inane question that I would purposely tell a harder version of the truth out of pure contempt. Basically, I would repay dishonesty with dishonesty to prove a point in a situation like that.

    In a situation where the person is just honestly curious, they shouldn't ask unless they want to know. Or at least ask the question framed positively, rather than negatively... instead of "Do I look fat in this?" you could easily say "Is this outfit ok on me?", in which case an honest response could be "meh, you look better naked".


    That would probably result in:

    "Sigh men / figures / typical ."
    "Why don't you care. You didn't even look. LOOK!"

    Truth is, if it looks fine, it's fine. But beyond that, I wouldn't care. If it doesn't look fine, it doesn't look fine. Meh, you look better naked. Would indeed be a good way to deal with that honestly. But again the ulterior motive assumptions seem to come into play. When responded to seriously.

    Even though the intention would be to keep it playful. Since it really isn't a 'relationship-breaking' or 'love-numbing' issue.

    Either way, I didn't make this topic to get people to give examples what I should say. I made this topic as to why it is such an issue, where it really shouldn't be. And on the contrary in fact, the other way around seems like an issue to me. I know what I will say in every situation. But it would be nice to also be understood for a change.

    A pew pew. NT still seems like the type that could deal with it best. And I will attempt to sharpen myself into their direction. But heh, I don't really control who I am interested in and who I am not interested in.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  10. #50
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Hmm, this topic makes me think of Israelis.

    Most people find them (initially) rude, blunt, abrasive and abupt. But if you spend time around them (I was there for 6 months) you realize they believe in honesty, in being up front and matter of fact. If they like you they will tell you and spend time with you, if they don't they won't put on a pretence. And people never sugar coat the truth or make promises they don't intend to keep. Its quite liberating to live in a culture because you don't have to pretend and fake nice all the time. Israelis find most other cultures to be false and game-like, where you have to try to play along and work out what people really mean. And don't get me wrong they have big hearts, always helping you out where they can. And they will treat perfect strangers like family - they will come up to you and talk as if they know you. I'm a shy person but I found myself being bolder and more up front, just walking up to strangers and asking for help.

    I liked that culture because you always knew where you stood. You don't wonder what people think of you because they tell you. You learn to toughen up a bit to criticism and to not take it personally (and I'm a sensitive person who normally finds that hard to take) because its genuinely not meant to be a personal attack.

    However, I'm sure even Israeli men don't tell their wives/girlfriends that their ass looks fat. There's honesty and then there's honesty.

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