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  1. #11
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    Keep in mind Tilty, NTs consider all sugar-coating as falsehood--they would rather us be openly ambitious, then falsy modest.

    Though I will say Fluff, there is a slight difference between actual modesty and the "modesty" you are describing.

    Real modesty means that you actually understand that you are "only" a piece of the puzzle, a cog in a bigger machine, a chunk of the mountain; you might be a very improtant piece, cog, or chunk, and without you there may not be a complete picture, a functioning machine, or an upright mountain--it's important to understand your own importance, especially in a position of leadership, but I think true humility is found--not in being self-depreciating, but in recognizing others and elevating them for their support/accomplishments along side of you.

    Self-deprecation is false humility. Acting like you do less than you do or acting less important than you are when it's time to be recognized is actually pride in disguise (most of the time; if you're an NF, you may be looking to avoid stepping on other people's toes), trying to milk the moment to portray a false image of humility, which is actually recognition in itself.

    So yes. NF are emotionally deceptive. To all NTs who don't understand why NFs are that way--try having a heart sometime, see what lengths you go through to avoid being hurt and hurting others with the same organ. No offense...not that I actually need to say it.
    You say try having a heart. And that is just the deception that clashes with me. I think I am having a heart, and that your way is actually having less heart. I find that in these cases. Which is mental pain. Is good for someone in order to develop and evolve. At least when it is inflicted justfully and honestly. Ofcourse manipulating someone to cause pain is a huge no no. However, by 'manipulating' honesty into something less hurtful. You take away the oppertunity for the person to deal with and create an honest and sincere understanding of their surrounding. And deprave them of an oppertunity to grow more independant and self aware. At least that is what is looks like to me.

    I realize that we both believe we are right about this. And that each others belief is wrong. But don't forget that we NT's ultimatly are the way we are because that is our heart. Instead of saying we have no heart.

    PS: I'll change the topic name to tact then. Modesty as opposed to falsely bragging is something I do understand. I suppose modesty sort of has two sides to it. In some ways.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #12
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    ...
    Wouldn't this depend on whether someone is modest or is acting modest, like you do when conducting business?

    I think modesty is considered a likable trait because people who are modest or humble generally do not fall prey to errors of pride, they would be much less likely to let their ego cloud their vision.

    Modesty could not be a culprit for exchange of false information because one can only be modest about subjective attributes.

  3. #13
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    You say try having a heart. And that is just the deception that clashes with me. I think I am having a heart, and that your way is actually having less heart. I find that in these cases. Which is mental pain. Is good for someone in order to develop and evolve. At least when it is inflicted justfully and honestly. Ofcourse manipulating someone to cause pain is a huge no no. However, by 'manipulating' honesty into something less hurtful. You take away the oppertunity for the person to deal with and create an honest and sincere understanding of their surrounding. And deprave them of an oppertunity to grow more independant and self aware. At least that is what is looks like to me.

    I realize that we both believe we are right about this. And that each others belief is wrong. But don't forget that we NT's ultimatly are the way we are because that is our heart. Instead of saying we have no heart.

    PS: I'll change the topic name to tact then. Modesty as opposed to falsely bragging is something I do understand. I suppose modesty sort of has two sides to it. In some ways.
    In all honesty, I think your way is better. I wish I had a closer example to follow.
    Love is the point.

  4. #14
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I think this is also the reason I don't get involved on a social level with my employees. As I fall to being tactful and 'modest' in order to keep everything oiled and running smoothly. I deprave myself of the will and interest to get involved on a deeper level with any of them.

    Sorry, my mind just started shooting all over the place. I'm side tracking. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #15
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    Keep in mind Tilty, NTs consider all sugar-coating as falsehood--they would rather us be openly ambitious, then falsy modest.
    I do understand -- but da Wolf has stated that he wants nothing less than absolute honesty -- and so I must say that he is wrong in this and must be corrected. Even NTs can learn.

    Now, as to the example of the fat wife. I have been married. If I ask my husband if I look fat and he says yes, he has accomplished nothing except my cold shoulder for a few days, until I convince myself that I am desirable again. Weigh this carefully, so to speak. How much do you like sex? You see what I'm saying?

    If the question is "Do these jeans make me look fat?" then the answer depends on whether or not she has bought them, and if she has bought them, whether or not she still has the receipt. If she can still take them back, or she has not bought them yet, and they do make her fat, then by all means say so. If, however, she has been sporting these jeans and seems to be enjoying them, then you are being baited for compliments. Again, I ask you, how much do you enjoy the physical side of your relationship?

    Do you see what I'm getting at? It is in your best interest not to hurt other peoples' feelings unnecessarily. It turns out it is both noble and beneficial.

  6. #16
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post

    Now, as to the example of the fat wife. I have been married. If I ask my husband if I look fat and he says yes, he has accomplished nothing except my cold shoulder for a few days, until I convince myself that I am desirable again. Weigh this carefully, so to speak. How much do you like sex? You see what I'm saying?
    I have ended most of my relationships because of this. I am not comfortable in a relationship with someone that is incapable of understanding why I am as honest as I am. And I sure as heck won't fall to any less, not in something as serious to me as a relationship.

    I'm still searching for that person that does appreciate this for this reason. And I'm also a very happy single person in that I do not feel the loss of a relationship. Simply because that is not the kind of relationship I want to be in in the first place.

    Slightly unrelated. I do like sex, but I can go years without just fine as well, apparantly.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #17
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Honestly Wolffy, I think the NF tact and the NT tact both depend on who you're dealing with (judging from what Tilty just said) With NFs, I sugarcoat, with NTs I speak the truth in a helpful way. NFs, typically, already know they're too fat for the jeans if they are asking the question--it's a test of loyalty (yes, strangely, you're more loyal to her if you tell her she's beautiful and get off the subject than if you're honest to her and tell her she's fat, ending up with what I'm now calling the Tilty Scenario)...the NTs actually do want to know.
    Love is the point.

  8. #18
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I've wondered casually about this before, but never really put much thought in it. Which is odd, because it's really a quite intruiging subject.

    Modesty (Tact) is commonly accepted as a good and fair trade to ones skills. Yet modesty in itself implies that the honest true underlying thoughts are merely being surpressed and sugar coated. And thus, the skill of modesty is nothing more than deception. A way to cover up truth. A widely accepted and appreciated method of lying.

    To be modest is to project your thoughts in more subtle and generally nice ways.

    But why is it so appreciated then, specifically in relationships? No one enjoys being lied too. Everyone wants people to tell the truth. Yet when one modestly coats it with the term modesty, it's all fun and flowers.

    Is it a mere matter of perception, or are people truely that easily decepted by what they're told and taught. That common knowledge about modesty being a good thing is enough for them to accept it so?

    If interested, I am not a modest person. Except when dealing with customers and from a business point of view, when I see that being modest is rewarding. Whereas on a more personal level, and the most personal level being a monogamous relationship. I would not dare to fall for modesty. I would not dare to fraud and deceit the way I do around the common consumer.

    edit: Revised, Modesty -> Tact.
    There are a lot of things that are true. It takes tact to choose which ones to say and to whom. In purely economic terms, there are costs and gains from each possible thing to say. Not factoring in the other person's potential emotional response makes no sense, and throws off your cost benefit analysis.

    So, in order to maximize your gain, you SHOULD pay attention to possible emotional responses. Plus, all relationships are essentially trade agreements (why would you be friends with someone if you didn't gain something from them?), so saying things that evoke negative reactions disincentivizes the friendship, which isn't what you want.

    In order to be a logical person, you should view human emotions as just one of the things in the environment that should be navigated. Pretending or wishing they're not important is like pretending or wishing you wouldn't feel crappy if you didn't eat food.

    Also, going back to my relationships are trades idea, you can choose who you want to have relationships with...so, maybe you should put high weight on people being not very emotionally responsive when choosing friends.

  9. #19
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    ^ I concur.
    Love is the point.

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    There are a lot of things that are true. It takes tact to choose which ones to say and to whom. In purely economic terms, there are costs and gains from each possible thing to say. Not factoring in the other person's potential emotional response makes no sense, and throws off your cost benefit analysis.

    So, in order to maximize your gain, you SHOULD pay attention to possible emotional responses. Plus, all relationships are essentially trade agreements (why would you be friends with someone if you didn't gain something from them?), so saying things that evoke negative reactions disincentivizes the friendship, which isn't what you want.

    In order to be a logical person, you should view human emotions as just one of the things in the environment that should be navigated. Pretending or wishing they're not important is like pretending or wishing you wouldn't feel crappy if you didn't eat food.

    Also, going back to my relationships are trades idea, you can choose who you want to have relationships with...so, maybe you should put high weight on people being not very emotionally responsive when choosing friends.
    In terms of business I whole heartedly agree. But I can not bring myself to do this on a personal level. If I was to do this in a relationship. The relationship would be meaningless to me.

    I do agree that I should probably focus on getting NT friends above others, since it's the only group of people in which there seem to be people appreciating how I am.

    Coincidentally, all my relationships have been with INFJ's and an ESFJ. Unfortunatly, they also seem to be the type of people I am most easily interested in, in early stages.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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