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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.
    I think NTs may very well attempt to take elements of their indoctrination and reconcile them in a logical way. For instance, Marcion of Sinope speculated that the Old Testament depicted a different god than the New Testament did. He attempted to solve an apparent contradiction; if an NT noted the paradoxical nature of the Judeo-Christian notion of God, then perhaps they would try to rectify it by leaning into polytheism. I guess doubt and agnosticism would need to be a precursor for this to happen though.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    More like the philosophy of ancient Greek thinkers, some of whom happened to be Pagans (do we know whether any were even atheists???) We don't characterize people like Kant, Hegel, Rousseau, and Marx as "Christian philosophers". In fact, some were decidedly anti-Christian. A philosopy is not the same as theological doctrine.
    I hope you won't mind too much, Coriolis, if I make a personal comment.

    And it is a comment I take from Cricket. It's when a bowler has the measure of the batsman, and we say, the bowler has found his length.

    At first you threw me quite off my length, and as you yourself say, you aim to win an argument.

    So at first I thought you were a tiger, but it turns out you are a paper tiger.

  3. #363
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I hope you won't mind too much, Coriolis, if I make a personal comment.

    And it is a comment I take from Criket. It's when a bowler has the measure of the batsman, and we say, the bowler has found his length.

    At first you threw me quite off my length, and as you yourself say, you aim to win an argument.

    So at first I thought you were a tiger, but it turns out you are a paper tiger.
    You are incorrect, on two counts. First, I never said my aim was to win an argument. I will, however, call out what appears inaccurate when I see it. If it is I who am in error, the other person can explain how. In this manner, we both get to the bottom of the matter. Second, here I am at best an electronic tiger, unless you are printing out our discussions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #364
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Don't worry - I can tell the difference between an insult and simple disagreement. I am curious, though, as to what you consider "mistaken" about modern Pagans. First, Paganism never totally died out, though it was certainly supplanted in many regions first by Judaism, then Christianity and eventually Islam. Hinduism, for instance, has long been the main religion of India, and is essentially that culture's version of Paganism. Same for the spiritual traditions of many indigenous people like the Native American cultures.

    That being said, modern Pagans know better than to attempt to reproduce the religion of millennia ago. Many of us do enjoy the history lesson of studying those times, but with the benefit of modern hindsight, we have far greater understanding of the natural world on many levels than did people in those times, though I do think we have lost some of their understanding. I don't want to derail this thread into another discussion of Paganism. In fact there already is one, if you are really interested in a sampling of what modern Pagans think.

    As for Francis Bacon, the first line of this essay is telling:


    He is going into his investigation with a preconception. Far more than a hypothesis, it is what he wants to think. His arguments support this desire, not necessarily following the facts.
    If you consider the context in which he is writing it would only make sense that in order to be able to discuss atheism he would have to begin with an affirmation of something, anything other than atheism.

    The important point, as I said was that he suggests a little knowledge leads to atheism and a lot in the other direction.

    What you write about makes sense, however it would also, to me affirm anything other than a paganistic revival, unlike so many of the other world religions those ideas would appear to be hide bound to their era and context without perrenial underpinnings. Testifying that the origin myths and beliefs of multiple diverse cultures are all essentially pagan seems pretty mistaken to me too, the natives of the Americas wouldnt consider there to be continuity with celto-romano-nordic peoples of which some of the modern revivals and reinventions depend such as Wicca or Asatru.

    I've read a lot of the thinking of those associated with the Pagan revivals and think it is mistaken, a lot of those who testify to those beliefs I've known to be more set upon recovering or reviving or adopting beliefs which are contrary to, rival or are the perennial opposition to those they reject, for different reasons. That's mistaken too, I for instance oppose a lot of the dissenter, protestant and reformation congregations, particularly a lot of the modern US varieties but I dont believe in the RCC, for the most part, because it is and has been juxapositioned opposite to those currents.

  5. #365
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are incorrect, on two counts. First, I never said my aim was to win an argument. I will, however, call out what appears inaccurate when I see it. If it is I who am in error, the other person can explain how. In this manner, we both get to the bottom of the matter. Second, here I am at best an electronic tiger, unless you are printing out our discussions.
    Do you wonder were that particular stream of consciousness came from?

    Cricket and maoism?

  6. #366
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    So at first I thought you were a tiger, but it turns out you are a paper tiger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Second, here I am at best an electronic tiger, unless you are printing out our discussions.
    Coriolis, it's a Chinese idiom - paper tiger. Meaning, something that pretends to be like a real tiger, fierce, powerful, and threatening, but, in reality, is none of those things.

    "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

  7. #367
    Senior Member Hinastarr's Avatar
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    Without appearing biased or controversial in claiming this, based upon personal experience/ observations, this is what I've usually observed:

    NFs:

    INFP- would probably alternate between being a devout follower toward whichever faith they belong to (based upon how well it correlates with their personal value system), or being somewhat outspoken about their atheism or disbelief in traditional religion, often rationalizing their views by recalling certain inner beliefs they've reflected upon that they feel contradict the common teachings of said religion.

    INFJ- might be more inclined to believing in God simply as a means to conforming with societal values, without following a traditional religious structure. More specifically, I often feel that most INFJs may tend to be either spiritual believers in God (having faith in Him without considering themselves a follower of any particular faith and basing their beliefs upon their own visions and ideals) or agnostic, feeling that something divine may lie above us all, but is impossible or much too complex to describe.

    ENFP- probably more inclined to being spiritual/ agnostic than truly religious, as their Ne was lead to their seeming skeptical of traditional beliefs and continuously question the "what ifs" and possibilities that lie beyond what the bible (or whichever religious book) has taught them.

    ENFJ- based upon personal experience, I've observed that many of them tend to be surprisingly religious/ spiritual with an open desire to inspire society to instill their religious ideas onto eithers and "enlighten" them by persuading them to accept their faith (yes, I know that this sounds terrible, and didn't intend to insult ENFJs in claiming this, either...). I feel as though most of them fulfill the role of the classic spiritual leader/ mentor attempting to offer healing and acceptance toward those around them and lead them towards positivity through a shared faith.

    NTs:

    INTP- As the INFP, probably alternates between being rather vocal about their atheism or being spiritual/ agnostic, considering differing religious viewpoints, yet remaining skeptical to them all while trying to discern the ultimate "truth" beyond it all through extensive deductive reasoning and analysis. Probably somewhat quirkier and more alternative in their reasoning than would be the INTJ.

    INTJ- Probably rather similar to the INTP in terms of their perspective on religion, but with a certain logical/ scientific edge about them, being somewhat more subjective in their logical reasoning as they approach religion as something that can be analyzed through scientific analysis (think the typical intellectuals discussing the prospects of religion on a documentary contrasting atheism against Christianity.)

    ENTP- Probably possesses some sort of alternative perspective upon religion as they reject all potential beliefs and try to craft their own personal spiritual system to follow based upon their own logical reasoning, regardless of how eccentric it may seem to outsiders.

    ENTJ- Probably very similar to the ENFJ previously described, but with a greater desire to organize their environment logically based upon their vision than group people harmoniously according to ethics and a common religious belief.

    SJ:

    ESFJ- The dutiful religious follower who continuously tries to exemplify the traits of the ideal Christian (or member of their personal religion) by being overly polite to all newcomers and striving to organize church activities and meetings that will strengthen the sense of "togetherness and belonging" experienced by the community.

    ISFJ- A quiet, dutiful follower to their religious faith who readily adheres to the ideals imposed by the church and tries to comply to them by adapting their values onto their daily structure of life. Likely a kindhearted, hard-working contributor to the church who serves as the ESFJs calmer, less expressive partner in spreading the word. If a teenager, I'd also imagine them to be the type to engage in several community service organizations/ extracurricular revolving around their religious beliefs and being an avid volunteer for the church's activities.

    ESTJ- The strict, traditionalist parent/ leader striving to organize their environment according to their religious beliefs at whichever cost, probably adhering to the views proposed by their faith a bit more strongly than most and seeming hesitant to accept any new ideas that may somehow contradict the bible's teaching, hence their appearing somewhat close-minded and inflexible in regards to more controversial matters (gays/ transsexuals, abortion, premarital sex, teenage pregnancy, atheism/ agnosticism, marrying outside their faith, etc.)

    ISTJ- Likely bears many similarities to the ESTJ church member described above, but is quieter and less imposing in stressing their religious beliefs. Probably desires to adhere to a traditional schedule for attending church every Sunday and honoring every religious holiday/ event in their calendar with reverence. As the ESTJ, I feel they might also struggle in accepting unorthodox values/ controversial matters that deviate from the norm.

    SP

    ISFP- May appear similar to the INFP to an extent, yet seems more likely to be "spiritual", without a strong adherence to any particular faith/ religion, as they observe their society from afar and craft their own inner value system based upon what feels "right".

    ISTP- Probably the most likely of all the MBTI types to be a flat-out atheist (although I may be biased in assuming this), as they appear to be very logical and present-oriented, possibly causing them to defer any form of religious belief/ practice simply because it just doesn't seem feasible/ logical to them.

    ESFP- Similar to the ISFP in their tendency to be "spiritual" in their beliefs, although I feel that they for some reason seem more likely to be a believer in faith/ religion (possibly as the bubbly, enthusiastic churchgoer striving to be kind and polite towards everyone and accept them equally).

    ESTP- Like the ISTP, is possibly too pragmatic/ present-oriented to give much regard to religion, claiming that religious belief simply seems impractical and overly theoretical, being rooted within idealistic values/ beliefs that have no root in concrete reality.


    Once more, I did not intend to offend anyone with anything mentioned upon this list, but instead, was merely sharing my personal beliefs of how every MBTI type might approach religion. I respect everyone's personal beliefs/ value systems and am not trying to stereotype/ categorize anyone.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastarr View Post
    Once more, I did not intend to offend anyone with anything mentioned upon this list, but instead, was merely sharing my personal beliefs of how every MBTI type might approach religion. I respect everyone's personal beliefs/ value systems and am not trying to stereotype/ categorize anyone.
    This is impeccable, impeccably correct, and offends no one. So why not turn your hand to how every Star Sign might approach religion?

  9. #369
    Junior Member secretowl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    When it comes to monotheistic religions any personality type goes.
    NTs would try and prove the existence of God
    NFs would dwell in the spiritual aspects of the religion
    SPs would believe it but probably not act on it
    SJs would strictly follow the rules of the religion
    I think that this is a pretty good assessment, to which I would add that, when NTs are religious, they have to rationalize it extensively (especially INTs) or backburner it while maintaining casual association with it as a social machination (ENTs). The rationalization can lend itself to some pretty cogent Intelligent Design arguments, and/OR totally fringe, conspiracy theory cult-grade mania (i.e. "alien sightings are fallen angels communicating with the American media Jews, conspiring with the Israeli state descended from Cain, the offspring of Eve and Satan, etc., and also, they're probably Reptilians who can only be fought by summoning archangels via Hyperspace symbols).
    x_x"
    "'Cause there's gotta be an explanation for all this stuff, right?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    This is perhaps one the worst arguments I've heard to try and prove God does not exist and funny enough, it's one of the most effective.
    It's the NF way.

    Julianne-Moore.jpg

    It doesn't matter. As a religious minority, atheists are deemed less trustworthy than rapists. We'll need all the cute, fuzzy NF poster-kids we can get.

  10. #370
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Nearly all other ENFJ's that I know are religious and or spiritual.

    I, and one ENFJ-4w3 that I know are the only atheist ENFJ's I know.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


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