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  1. #261
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The question is not whether their conclusions are true, but whether they follow from the text. I am not asking you to argue for them. I just thought you might have the arguments ready for presentation.
    But, if you don't think the conclusions can be true then what's the point?

    Anyway, far be it for me to not provide Christian reading materials when there is an opportunity...

    Augustine on the Trinity
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.i.html

    Athanasius on the incarnation
    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_9

    There are hundreds of more pages, but that should be a start.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #262
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    But, if you don't think the conclusions can be true then what's the point?
    The purpose is to collect arguments that even christians must accept: If I find obvious errors in their arguments, the fact that "Augustine and Athanasius managed to argue for the trinity from the bible without ever referencing the later introduced words you're referring to" is rendered meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Anyway, far be it for me to not provide Christian reading materials when there is an opportunity...

    Augustine on the Trinity
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.i.html

    Athanasius on the incarnation
    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_9

    There are hundreds of more pages, but that should be a start.
    I will look into it later this week. My back hurts.

  3. #263
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I guess it comes from my personal experiences with trying to seek out is there a God or not over the years. I stumbled upon a church in my area with a pastor who's sermons really resonate with me because the guy is a genius and incorporates a lot of science into what he talks about. (Also Lost and the Lion King.) He teaches the concept that God is love and that love is only possible in a relationship. (Which is part of his explanation on why God isn't singular, in that love has to occur between two or more beings in order for it to be love. My guess on that there are three is that there is something to the give and take of a triangle relationship.) I don't see any downside in living this way. In the end it is a leap of faith to make that jump from what I see and have proof of with my limited views.

    Trying to live in a loving fashion makes me a calmer and happier person overall. It affects the people I come into contact with because they like being around me and getting loved by me. Some of them are inspired to try and love other people.
    The highlighted is the best argument for the trinity that I have ever seen. People usually refer to the Bible, which assumes one accepts the validity of the Bible. Your reasoning is independent of that. The "real" truths of the Bible should find independent corroboration elsewhere. I mentioned that I am pagan, and even my tradition understands this idea of necessary relationship, and the significant difference between a relationship involving 2 and one involving 3. We see 3 as a minimum, though, not a limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm not going to argue this with someone who doesn't believe the bible to contain any truth to begin with. You have already concluded that what is in the bible is false so there is nothing for me to argue.
    The Bible contains plenty of truth, just not always the truth people want to ascribe to it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #264
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The Bible contains plenty of truth, just not always the truth people want to ascribe to it.
    And the incarnation of Christ is one of things that non-believers already dismiss without caring what the bible says.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is the best argument for the trinity that I have ever seen. People usually refer to the Bible, which assumes one accepts the validity of the Bible. Your reasoning is independent of that. The "real" truths of the Bible should find independent corroboration elsewhere. I mentioned that I am pagan, and even my tradition understands this idea of necessary relationship, and the significant difference between a relationship involving 2 and one involving 3. We see 3 as a minimum, though, not a limit.


    The Bible contains plenty of truth, just not always the truth people want to ascribe to it.
    I am glad you enjoyed it. It is the only one that makes sense to me as well, and it's why it finally resonated with me after a life-thus-far-long struggle of "wtf."

    That idea along with many others that he talks about are what convinced me that this was worth exploring again.

    That is interesting about your perspectives and relationships and their necessity. I guess for me I find it to be 3 versus 99 or a million just because it's the most distilled down common denominator. I am not sure I can put the thoughts adequately into words. The concept is supposed to be one God within whom there are three parts. I can accept that, but thinking beyond that it starts getting muddled and bizarre. One God with 99 parts just seems counter productive and too confusing. Three in the concept of a balanced relationship makes a lot more sense. Especially since the concept of 3 into 1 is complicated enough to confuse most everyone to the point where they either just blindly accept or outwardly reject it.

  6. #266
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    And the incarnation of Christ is one of things that non-believers already dismiss without caring what the bible says.
    If the only "evidence" for this is what is written in the Bible, I can understand why they dismiss it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #267
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I don't know what you mean. You don't know me and you haven't met one of them, and I'm assuming you're not a Celtic Wiccan, so what's your point?
    To be a 'Celtic Wiccan' today is to be part of the Romantic Movement which is a reaction to the Enlightenment in Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries.

    And the Romantic Movement is a denial of reality based on evidence and reason. Just as being a 'Celtic Wiccan' is a denial of reality today.

  8. #268
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    i guess i believe in some kind of higher power, but my feelings on this change a lot based on circumstance and my mood. sometimes i'm more atheist-leaning but i wouldn't identify myself as one. i'm open to the possibility of something, and i think attributing everything to logic and science is equally foolish to blindly following a religion. i am envious of people who have a deep belief in god because i feel like they're happier, but i can't make myself believe.

  9. #269
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    trinitarianism hinged almost solely on the conviction of one person (Athanasius)
    We know the Ancient Greeks had the idea of the Triune God, so the Trinity goes much further back than Athanasius.

  10. #270
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We know the Ancient Greeks had the idea of the Triune God, so the Trinity goes much further back than Athanasius.
    "Ancient Greeks" is a very broad term. Which ancient Greeks are you referring to?

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