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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Net-worth and self-worth: what is difference?

    The difference between net worth and self worth to my mind rests on that which is extrinsic and intrinsic to our humanity.

    Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:
    1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
    2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
    3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
    4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
    5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)

    I think that the needs 1 thru 3 are extrinsic needs. While needs 4 and 5 are to a large degree intrinsic needs. They are intrinsic in the sense that we can survive without fulfilling such needs but they are needs that will enhance our sense of self worth.

    Capitalism tends to accentuate needs 1 thru 3 with little thought to 4 and 5 because such an economic system recognizes little about anything but net worth. Net worth is valuable especially if it allows us to accomplish needs 4 and 5.

    “Presupposition that the work of art, as an autonomous organism, stands beside nature on equal terms and, in its deepest essence, devoid of any connection with it, in so far as by nature is understood the visible surface of things.” Wilhelm Worringer author of Abstraction and Empathy
    I don't know if I agree entirely with your opinion that Capitalism doesn't contribute to the fulfilling of needs 4 & 5. It's a bit of a stretch to say that Capitalism fulfills need # 3, so I think that if you can stretch that far for 3, you can definitely stretch that far for 4 & 5.

    When a person develops a business of their own, provides a product or service to others and successfully supports themselves and their family through that business, I think Capitalism has GREATLY contributed to needs # 4 & 5!

    But when I say Capitalism, I mean honest capitalism where honest work is offered for a fair price, not dishonest capitalism where someone is just taking advantage of others and milking them for all they've got.

  2. #12
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    My point is that capitalism tends to form an ideology focused upon net worth without consideration about self-worth. Cultural anti-intellectualism is an example. Our educational system teaches us the things that we need to know in order to help maximize production and consumption with little regard for teaching us what we need to know to establish self-esteem beyond the acquisition of consumer goods. Our educational system does not produce graduates who are prepared to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals.
    Is it the job of our educational system to teach kids 'to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals' or is it a parent's job?

    (I actually agree with the point of view you're presenting, I'm just curious of what your answer might be.)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Is it the job of our educational system to teach kids 'to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals' or is it a parent's job?

    (I actually agree with the point of view you're presenting, I'm just curious of what your answer might be.)
    Parents were not taught the things that I consder to important and thus they cannot teach their children what they themselves do not comprehend.

    I think that it is the job of our educational system to prepare young people for a productive and satisfying life while still accepting their responsibilities as citizens and as moral creatures.

    To accomplish this daunting task we must stop our present attitude, which is to prepare young people only to become useful in maximizing production and consumption.

    A fundamental aspect for fulfilling this task is to teach young people not just what to think but how to think. This means that young people be taught CT (Critical Thinking) as a minimum.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post

    But when I say Capitalism, I mean honest capitalism where honest work is offered for a fair price, not dishonest capitalism where someone is just taking advantage of others and milking them for all they've got.
    Capitalism does not have the means to be honest, it can be honest only to the extent that the government create laws that force this kind of behavior. Capitalism does not contain a moral aspect but encourages only selfish behavior.

  5. #15
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Ye gads, I didn't realise you were advocating free thought!!

    As was pointed out to me before, free thinking on a large scale is not really possible. You get the Brian complex.

    Brian "You're all individuals"
    Crowd "We're all individuals"
    Individual "I'm not"

    Look at punk, it advocated challenging the system but instead spawned yet another fashion. People don't want their eyes opened and they certainly don't want children who ask too many questions. They want compliant, obedient wage slaves... that's what keeps the system going.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #16
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Capitalism does not have the means to be honest, it can be honest only to the extent that the government create laws that force this kind of behavior. Capitalism does not contain a moral aspect but encourages only selfish behavior.
    I understand that your point of view is prevalent right now, but I do not share it.

    Law is wholly inadequate at making people honest or moral or ethical. People must already BE honest, moral and ethical when they come to the table.

    Neither do I believe that Capitalism "encourages" "only" selfish behavior. There have been many moral and honest businesspeople down through the years. Indeed, we wouldn't have gotten this far without them.

    That is a very fatalistic view of Capitalism, and with such philosophy being spoon-fed to people, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that that very attitude has engendered even MORE dishonesty and selfishness.

    "selfish"... and what's NOT selfish? Communism?! Pah!

    At least Capitalism encourages human industry and ingenuity.

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    No business philosophy encourages honesty... they wouldn't make any money... well aside from kookie theories which may work once...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    The two are mutually exclusive.

    I know plenty of wealthy people with low self esteem.

    I know plenty of everyday Joes who are fully sefl actualized.

    I know wealthy self actualized folks, and I know status quo folks who hate themselves.


  9. #19
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Net-worth and self-worth: what is difference?

    The difference between net worth and self worth to my mind rests on that which is extrinsic and intrinsic to our humanity.

    Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:
    1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
    2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
    3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
    4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
    5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)

    I think that the needs 1 thru 3 are extrinsic needs. While needs 4 and 5 are to a large degree intrinsic needs. They are intrinsic in the sense that we can survive without fulfilling such needs but they are needs that will enhance our sense of self worth.

    Capitalism tends to accentuate needs 1 thru 3 with little thought to 4 and 5 because such an economic system recognizes little about anything but net worth. Net worth is valuable especially if it allows us to accomplish needs 4 and 5.
    This OP reminds me of something I read once, I think it was in Discipline & Punish by Michel Foucault. If I’m remembering it correctly- Foucault proposed there was a cultural shift in attitude towards individual human rights, sometime around 17th century (?), wherein it suddenly became ‘cruel and unusual’ to inflict bodily harm on a person. It had been routine to punish a person by disemboweling them (or some similar gruesome form of torture) right out in the center of a public place. A movement to protect an individual’s rights arose from it, but (according to Foucault) it was short-sighted in that it was focused on protecting an individual’s extrinsic rights. It became unacceptable to torture a person’s corporeal body- yet very little attention (if any) was paid to torture inflicted on someone’s mind. The concept that it was possible to hurt someone’s ‘mind’ wasn’t even close to being recognized.

    Anyway- Foucault believed this accounted for our present day short-sightedness in regard to ‘human rights’. There’s a strong bias in favor of the phrase ‘human rights’ to indicate extrinsic human needs, and intrinsic human needs are often deemed superfluous. There needs to be a shift in social consciousness towards accepting those intrinsic human needs as being an inherent component of ‘human rights’.

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Capitalism does not contain a moral aspect but encourages only selfish behavior.
    Capitalism does not encourage selfish behavior, people encourage selfish behavior. Social mores encourage/discourage selfish behavior. Granted: selfish behaviors thrive in capitalism. But then again, selfish behaviors will thrive wherever social mores don’t totally condemn someone for behaving selfishly.

    Replacing capitalism with another system will not, in itself, incite that needed shift in the collective social consciousness. Not IMO.

    Though I wholly agree with you in the sentiment that our public school system really, really needs to put more focus on critical thinking skills and far less focus on being a ‘productive worker’. At the very least, more & more people are recognizing this. And it’s also heartening, I think, that home-schooling seems to be on the rise.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  10. #20
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    Z Buck

    I think that it was not the 17th century but the 18th century, the Age of Enlightenment, in which we changed our focus from God and the hereafter to humans and the here and now. It was the begining of humanism.

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