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  1. #1
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Default Why God most certainly does not exist

    Quite simply, "reality" is the sum of all existents. Nothing can exist outside of reality. To rephrase this, approaching the point from the opposite angle, non-reality does not exist. Reality, as the sum of all existents, encompasses all that exists - it is not suspended within non-reality.

    Let's start with an infinite, all-encompassing God. The mythos of most monotheistic religions posits that God is infinite - that He has no beginning and no end. So long as God is all that exists and He is infinite, there is no problem with this assertion. At this point, "God" is interchangeable with "reality" - the two terms are redundant. However, this is an issue of semantics and not ration, so we'll leave that aside.

    Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite. To put this in simpler terms, suddenly we have two entities: God and His universe. They must be suspended in something - as non-reality does not exist, these two entities could not, together, make up all of reality, suspended in non-reality. Whatever it is that they existed within, together, would be reality. Here the problem of infinite regress arises: who or what created the reality that God and His fresh new universe are presently existing within?

    The only solution to this is that reality is infinite. Which is to say that reality is all that is, that, by definition, nothing can exist outside of reality and reality cannot be suspended in a non-existent non-reality.

    Why is this truism not universally accepted? There are three reasons.

    1.) Many people have simply not been introduced to this, Kant's famous formulation.

    2.) Of those who have been introduced to this formulation, many are, for personal reasons, unwilling to accept it. I'll not outline these reasons, as I trust in the intelligence and world wisdom of those reading this to conjure up a good number of cases in point on their own.

    3.) Of those who have been introduced to this formulation, many quite simply lack the imagination and intelligence to reach the level of understanding of the concept of the infinite required to grasp it. I realize that this sort of language makes certain types bristle, but it is the fact of the matter.

    And that's really all there is to it.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  2. #2
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    So:

    - The universe is everything.
    - God existed before the universe.
    - Therefore God is seperate from everything.
    - Therefore God, seperate from what is, cannot be.

    Yes?

    In my opinion, the problem with this (and many non-mathematical proofs in general), is that it's too mired in wordplay to really take seriously. Trying to battle religious concepts with logic is generally ineffective as there is already a 'leap of faith' which to those in the belief bypasses the need for logical application.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    The person who makes the computer isn't inside the computer.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Fluff posts dumped in the off-topic GY bin.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    The person who makes the computer isn't inside the computer.
    Yup. Now take that to the next stage, as was described in the OP.

    * * * * *

    Mycroft, how do you think concepts like pantheism and panentheism fit into the philosophical framework here?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    I have a biology teacher that is amazing, she's brilliant and someone posed the question to her yesterday about God. I really liked her answer. She is a Sunday school teacher and has no qualms telling people about her faith in God. She explained her science/faith theory like this:

    Picture a huge zillion piece puzzle of the Earth.

    You have the scientists who have put together the top right hand corner of the sky and they shout, "Reality is blue!"

    You have the theologians putting together the bottom right hand corner of the grass and they shout, "Reality is green!"

    Her point was that they are both putting together the same puzzle, but neither of them can see that.

    I really liked her answer

  6. #6
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    The person who makes the computer isn't inside the computer.
    Oh yeah? Have you seen Ghost in the Shell?

    ...yeah, I didn't think so.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I have a biology teacher that is amazing, she's brilliant and someone posed the question to her yesterday about God. I really liked her answer. She is a Sunday school teacher and has no qualms telling people about her faith in God. She explained her science/faith theory like this:

    Picture a huge zillion piece puzzle of the Earth.

    You have the scientists who have put together the top right hand corner of the sky and they shout, "Reality is blue!"

    You have the theologians putting together the bottom right hand corner of the grass and they shout, "Reality is green!"

    Her point was that they are both putting together the same puzzle, but neither of them can see that.

    I really liked her answer
    Oooh, wow. This is a really great way to put it. It's what I have always thought, but could never have put in this way. I think it's great when you have someone who is open to both sides of the puzzle. Usually you only have strict theologans who discredit science, or scientists who discredit theology.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  8. #8
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    3.) Of those who have been introduced to this formulation, many quite simply lack the imagination and intelligence to reach the level of understanding of the concept of the infinite required to grasp it. I realize that this sort of language makes certain types bristle, but it is the fact of the matter.
    OMG Y R U ATTACKING MY FEELINGS??????? *histrionic explosion*


    anyway, yeah, I think most theists would simply argue that God created the universe as a part of himself and that they are not separate entities.

    since he was already infinite, he simply decided to rearrange a portion of his own infinity and declare it to be "the universe." he could still change properties of this universe later if he wanted to, but it's still all part of him.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #9
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Oooh, wow. This is a really great way to put it. It's what I have always thought, but could never have put in this way. I think it's great when you have someone who is open to both sides of the puzzle. Usually you only have strict theologans who discredit science, or scientists who discredit theology.
    I agree, that's why I found her analogy so interesting. I think we all expected her to scoff at the question, but she didn't. There was more to her answer but I just summed it up.

  10. #10
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Excellent example, Jenna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite. To put this in simpler terms, suddenly we have two entities: God and His universe. They must be suspended in something - as non-reality does not exist, these two entities could not, together, make up all of reality, suspended in non-reality. Whatever it is that they existed within, together, would be reality. Here the problem of infinite regress arises: who or what created the reality that God and His fresh new universe are presently existing within?
    This premise, summarized in bold, does not appear to have support beyond the unproven assumption that spiritual reality obeys the laws of observable physical reality.

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