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Why God most certainly does not exist

stellar renegade

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Quite simply, "reality" is the sum of all existents. Nothing can exist outside of reality. To rephrase this, approaching the point from the opposite angle, non-reality does not exist. Reality, as the sum of all existents, encompasses all that exists - it is not suspended within non-reality.

Let's start with an infinite, all-encompassing God. The mythos of most monotheistic religions posits that God is infinite - that He has no beginning and no end. So long as God is all that exists and He is infinite, there is no problem with this assertion. At this point, "God" is interchangeable with "reality" - the two terms are redundant. However, this is an issue of semantics and not ration, so we'll leave that aside.

Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite.

I don't know what you're talking about in the rest of that post, and I don't have time to try to figure it out right now, but suffice to say that what I quoted from you is not a problem in the least for a panentheist.
 

Mycroft

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I don't see why it has to expand into anything. When you talk about my minds eye, it makes it sound like I need to be visualizing it, and of course to visualize the whole of reality I'd have to abstract out and see it in where it exists in a larger context. So essentially, it seems to me that the space or whatever that it's expanding into is more a construct of our process of abstraction than something that needs to 'be' in some sense.

I don't see why something can't increase in size without there needing to be some existing thing outside of it into which it's expanding, but on some level it could just be that we're talking about what-is differently. I guess I think my way is at least valid enough that I wouldn't feel obligated to accept conclusions coming from your way.

Anything finite in any sense -- be it spatially, temporally, or any other sort of manner we can imagine -- would have an end, a boundary. Consequently, it would need to adhere within something, as even an endless expanse of nothingness would exist.

Really, it comes down to whether one is able to synthesize a single concept: non-reality, non-existence, cannot exist.
 

Mycroft

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Dammit Scott I wanted to post this first! :D (Well you're whole post is very well written, so I guess it's better that you did.) Yeah the OP confuses the ideas of "infinite" and "all-encompassing". The initial premise is flawed, so the whole argument is pointless.

Liquid, you may find one of my previous objections to this formulation of interest.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Liquid, you may find one of my previous objections to this formulation of interest.

I believe you are still combining the ideas of "infinite" and "all-encompassing" together. While some types of faiths would hold that God is all-encompassing (and actually there is not a problem here either), the majority simply require that God is infinite, but not necessarily all-encompassing. For example a line is infinite. It is not bounded in either the positive or negative direction. However a line is properly contained within a plane. The line is infinite but not all-encompassing with regard to the plane.


Most belief systems only describe God as infinite, i.e. infinite power, beyond time, omniscient, etc.... God is not required to be all-encompassing. (And even those who believe God is all-encompassing do not actually have a problem either, although they need to explain things differently.)
 

Athenian200

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Should I even bother with this discussion? :dry:

Nope. I wouldn't waste my time if I were you. You're not going to change anyone's mind, and no one's going to change your mind, it's clear that we're all pretty set in our ways at this point. :yes:

We know what you believe. Well, sort of, anyway. It's hard to understand or value the nuances in the different theological beliefs people have if you're not even in the same category, so our interpretations of what you believe are probably incredibly vague and painted with a broad brush. We could probably place you into the right quadrant out of four, though, assuming you divide religious beliefs into four quadrants.
 
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Touche. In that case, carry on folks - if nothing else this thread will provide me with a great source of amusement.
 

Mycroft

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I believe you are still combining the ideas of "infinite" and "all-encompassing" together. While some types of faiths would hold that God is all-encompassing (and actually there is not a problem here either), the majority simply require that God is infinite, but not necessarily all-encompassing. For example a line is infinite. It is not bounded in either the positive or negative direction. However a line is properly contained within a plane. The line is infinite but not all-encompassing with regard to the plane.


Most belief systems only describe God as infinite, i.e. infinite power, beyond time, omniscient, etc.... God is not required to be all-encompassing. (And even those who believe God is all-encompassing do not actually have a problem either, although they need to explain things differently.)

Again, this brings us back to the issue of eternal regress. If God is finite in the sense that things other than Him exist, then He and these other existents must adhere within something. Together they must add up to reality. Who or what created this reality?
 

SolitaryWalker

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I believe you are still combining the ideas of "infinite" and "all-encompassing" together. While some types of faiths would hold that God is all-encompassing (and actually there is not a problem here either), the majority simply require that God is infinite, but not necessarily all-encompassing. For example a line is infinite. It is not bounded in either the positive or negative direction. However a line is properly contained within a plane. The line is infinite but not all-encompassing with regard to the plane..)


Note: The definition of infinite is endless or unlimited. A line is only partially infinite as it stretches endlessly only into one direction and not in all. Hence, it is finite in all directions but one.

The crux of Mycroft's argument is this: Most Judeo-Christian faiths describe God as distinct from the universe. This is incoherent because the universe is traditionally taken to be all that exists. God is maintained to exist and to be distinct from the universe. Hence, simultaneously two incompatible claims are made. God exists and God is nothing (outside of all things that exist). You have not yet furnished a refutation of this view.

On that note, we may drop the argument about the infinity of the universe. The main question is about the separability of God from the universe. If he is infinite (has no limits), then how is it possible for his nature to not include the world? Would you reply with a claim that he is infinite but not all encompassing? Exactly how a line is infinite, that is God stretches infinitely in only one direction and therefore does not occupy all of the universe? In that case, he goes through the universe, but then where does he go after he has gone through his creation? Into nothingness, or ceases to exist? In that case he is not infinite like a line, he is a segment. Or not infinite at all. If he is infinite like a line (partially infinite), then he must proceed infinitely into the endless (infinite) universe that he created. Perhaps, exactly like a line he occupies only a part of the infinite plain. But in that regard, his nature must be coterminous with at least part of the universe and not completely distinct from it as many Judeo-Christian theologies maintain. At best, they would have to concede that God is only partially infinite, rather than completely.

Supplemental Note: Theologians may respond that it is not the case that God exists outside of the universe. He exists within the universe but outside of our universe. He resides in a realm that is radically different from ours. That is, one outside of time, space and matter. In that case we cannot talk about his existence meaningfully. When we claim that something exists, we assume that it has some characteristics relevant to our sensual perceptions. Such as for example, occupying space (being finite or infinite, that is occupying some space or all). If we say that something exists outside of space (God), we claim it occupies no space, or it is nothing by definition.

On that note, the talk of God existing in a different universe must be dismissed as hopeless non-sense. It means the same thing as God existing outside of the universe or in nothingness.
 

Sacrator

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Are you guys arguing over that book again? I told you its just a game! Why dont you discuss things like why miracles happen and how old fashioned sorcery brought results. Did you know just by focusing intent on matter you can manipulate it at a quantum level?!
 

Sacrator

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It doesn't i think its like a puzzle that is missing way too many pieces. All people can do is not assume about anything that is uncertain until the answer is discovered by exploration into the unknown.
 

simulatedworld

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Yes. We were intelligently designed for our DNA to naturally posses and develope traits of curiosity. These Gods were, more than likely, implanted here by our intelligent designer for us to eventually evolve our curiosity traits. Nothing is perfect. Even our intelligent designer. That should explain her/his/its timing of when all these Gods were implanted to, eventually, be questioned givin the amount of scientific knowledge available and curiosity at any givin time in history. Notice how it's only lately that science and tech have made it possible for a much more vast amount of people to question it?

Is this a joke?
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Again, this brings us back to the issue of eternal regress. If God is finite in the sense that things other than Him exist, then He and these other existents must adhere within something. Together they must add up to reality. Who or what created this reality?

As I understand it your argument is essentially, "God cannot be all-encompassing and have something exist separately from His existence." Well this idea is true. However that isn't the only possibility for God's existence.

Possibility 1: God is not required to be all-encompassing.
Even if God was at one point all-encompassing it is possible for Him to create something else, because he is not required to be all-encompassing. We can say that God has potentially infinite power, but must we say that God has infinite volume? God is not required to be infinite in every imaginable dimension, and therefore it is acceptable for both God and something else to exist.

Possibility 2: God is required to be all-encompassing, and has not "created" anything.
If God is required to be all-encompassing, then He can still be the maker of our known universe. In this case He didn't really "create" anything, but transformed what already existed into a new form. This is similar to the relationship between a nuclear reaction and the First Law of Thermodynamics. "Energy cannot be created or destroyed". A nuclear reaction does not violate this principal because it transforms matter into energy rather than "creating" it. In the same way God transformed what already existed into what we now call our known universe.
 

Mycroft

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As I understand it your argument is essentially, "God cannot be all-encompassing and have something exist separately from His existence." Well this idea is true. However that isn't the only possibility for God's existence.

Possibility 1: God is not required to be all-encompassing.
Even if God was at one point all-encompassing it is possible for Him to create something else, because he is not required to be all-encompassing. We can say that God has potentially infinite power, but must we say that God has infinite volume? God is not required to be infinite in every imaginable dimension, and therefore it is acceptable for both God and something else to exist.

Then who or what created the dimension in which God exists? Here's a crude analogy: God is an all-powerful being, sitting alone in a room. He is all that exists in this room. One day, he creates a chair, separate from Himself.

Who or what created the room?

Possibility 2: God is required to be all-encompassing, and has not "created" anything.
If God is required to be all-encompassing, then He can still be the maker of our known universe. In this case He didn't really "create" anything, but transformed what already existed into a new form. This is similar to the relationship between a nuclear reaction and the First Law of Thermodynamics. "Energy cannot be created or destroyed". A nuclear reaction does not violate this principal because it transforms matter into energy rather than "creating" it. In the same way God transformed what already existed into what we now call our known universe.

In order for reality to be infinite, it must already simultaneously contain all states. There is nothing which it could lack.
 

stellar renegade

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Then who or what created the dimension in which God exists? Here's a crude analogy: God is an all-powerful being, sitting alone in a room. He is all that exists in this room. One day, he creates a chair, separate from Himself.

Who or what created the room?

Why does there have to be a room?

Why can't it be that God creates his own space, and when he created the universe it simply made room for itself? Why does there have to be a separate, all-encompassing abstract aspect to it?
 

Scott

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Why does there have to be a room?

Why can't it be that God creates his own space, and when he created the universe it simply made room for itself? Why does there have to be a separate, all-encompassing abstract aspect to it?

Exactly. I really think you're creating the problem yourself Mycroft.

As for the discussion of 'infinite' - my understanding of 'infinite' was always that it meant 'not finite'. If a thing lacks finitude in any aspect, it is infinite. Of course, contextual uses occur where a lack of finitude in contextually defined respects are what is meant by 'infinite', and I think this is likely the case with much such language regarding God. The notion that God must be finite in every possible way to be God defines God in a different way from that of most traditions, and thereby fails to do business with them. In other words, it's a kind of strange straw man.

The crux of Mycroft's argument is this: Most Judeo-Christian faiths describe God as distinct from the universe. This is incoherent because the universe is traditionally taken to be all that exists. God is maintained to exist and to be distinct from the universe. Hence, simultaneously two incompatible claims are made. God exists and God is nothing (outside of all things that exist). You have not yet furnished a refutation of this view.

Forgive me, but it seems painfully obvious that those who maintain that God exists in some way distinct from the universe reject the premise that the universe is all that exists.
 

Fuulie

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The problem is, the the theory of God doesn't really follow logical lines, and thus is almost impossible to prove or disprove using logic. The terms as you define them could mean other things, etc.....

No, that's not it. I'm not sure how to phrase what I mean.

How about.... theists in general tend to believe that the concept of God is beyond human understanding, and therefore cannot be correctly rationalized with such human things as logic.

In any case, you might as well give up. Nothing you you or anybody else says is at all likely to change people's minds on the subject. It might be a good idea to refocus your energy on less abstract concepts.
 

Scott

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Wow, somebody should tell that to...I don't know, the entire southern half of the United States of America?

*looks at location*

*looks at quote*

*rubs eyes, turning back to location again*

I'm confused.

Well when you get down to the actual definition of knowledge, that's true. Scientists recognize that there is no such thing as absolute truth or fact without some kind of predefined external condition in a closed system.

For instance, it's scientific fact that 2+2=4, but only because we invented that system ourselves and predefined the conditions of what "2" and "+" and "=" and "4" mean. That's all arbitrary predefinition on our part, so we can make definite, 100% objective statements about it since it operates within a closed system of our own design.

Religion, on the other hand, does not operate within a closed system and claims that it can have direct knowledge with objective truth on all kinds of issues that are clearly totally unsolvable.

I'm sorry, but the religion=science parallel is just really poorly conceived and fleshed out even worse.

The notion that 2+2=4 is a scientific fact seems odd to me. Or like deciding to call anything that seems firmly true 'scientific fact'.

You seem to be comparing a modernistic understanding of religion to a more contemporary understanding of science, and then criticizing religion for having a modernistic take on things. I could do the same in the other direction - there's certain no shortage of nigh-positivistic proponents of science out there. This really doesn't say anything about science or religion, it just says something about the what religion looks like through the lens of modernism.

To go back to the first quote, it seems to me that much of the southern part of the US hasn't really gotten past modernism yet, whether regarding religious thought or else. This is particularly true of the louder parts, unfortunately, but that seems to always be the way of it. Looking at the larger stream of historical Christianity, as well as the better educated and brighter Christians today, gives a different view, without running into the problem of being hopelessly vague that you (rightly) criticized earlier.

Surprisingly, I actually don't even feel like explaining this one. There are lots of university level intro to philosophy courses and wikipedia summaries to explain this one to you, and if you can't piece it together then I have no interest in trying.

Oooh. See, I took four years of philosophy, but I never did take the intro class. I guess that must be why I still maintain this silly God idea. Maybe I can go back and audit.

It might be a good idea to refocus your energy on less abstract concepts.

Noooo! *Throws N water on Fuulie (it's magical, you know)* Don't give me your silly arguments about practicality and such things. I like-a the abstract.
 

Fuulie

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Noooo! *Throws N water on Fuulie (it's magical, you know)* Don't give me your silly arguments about practicality and such things. I like-a the abstract.
o-o *blinks* Aww. This shirt is dry-clean only.

Well, That was really aimed towards Mycroft. I see people try to logically prove the (un)existence of God all the time, but it just doesn't work to apply logic to a mostly illogical theory, and by illogical I don't mean 'nonsensical', I mean 'not involving traditional scientific empirical logic'. Also, these people frequently start off with certain assumptions, that is, they set up logical perimeters in which God cannot exist, then explain why he does not exist.

I have no opinion one way or the other at the moment. Honestly, I'm not sure why I came in here. XD -ambles out-
 
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