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  1. #71
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    My-question-is....Why-does-it-matter-so-much?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  2. #72
    Senior Member Sacrator's Avatar
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    It doesn't i think its like a puzzle that is missing way too many pieces. All people can do is not assume about anything that is uncertain until the answer is discovered by exploration into the unknown.

  3. #73
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Yes. We were intelligently designed for our DNA to naturally posses and develope traits of curiosity. These Gods were, more than likely, implanted here by our intelligent designer for us to eventually evolve our curiosity traits. Nothing is perfect. Even our intelligent designer. That should explain her/his/its timing of when all these Gods were implanted to, eventually, be questioned givin the amount of scientific knowledge available and curiosity at any givin time in history. Notice how it's only lately that science and tech have made it possible for a much more vast amount of people to question it?
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  4. #74
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Again, this brings us back to the issue of eternal regress. If God is finite in the sense that things other than Him exist, then He and these other existents must adhere within something. Together they must add up to reality. Who or what created this reality?
    As I understand it your argument is essentially, "God cannot be all-encompassing and have something exist separately from His existence." Well this idea is true. However that isn't the only possibility for God's existence.

    Possibility 1: God is not required to be all-encompassing.
    Even if God was at one point all-encompassing it is possible for Him to create something else, because he is not required to be all-encompassing. We can say that God has potentially infinite power, but must we say that God has infinite volume? God is not required to be infinite in every imaginable dimension, and therefore it is acceptable for both God and something else to exist.

    Possibility 2: God is required to be all-encompassing, and has not "created" anything.
    If God is required to be all-encompassing, then He can still be the maker of our known universe. In this case He didn't really "create" anything, but transformed what already existed into a new form. This is similar to the relationship between a nuclear reaction and the First Law of Thermodynamics. "Energy cannot be created or destroyed". A nuclear reaction does not violate this principal because it transforms matter into energy rather than "creating" it. In the same way God transformed what already existed into what we now call our known universe.
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  5. #75
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    As I understand it your argument is essentially, "God cannot be all-encompassing and have something exist separately from His existence." Well this idea is true. However that isn't the only possibility for God's existence.

    Possibility 1: God is not required to be all-encompassing.
    Even if God was at one point all-encompassing it is possible for Him to create something else, because he is not required to be all-encompassing. We can say that God has potentially infinite power, but must we say that God has infinite volume? God is not required to be infinite in every imaginable dimension, and therefore it is acceptable for both God and something else to exist.
    Then who or what created the dimension in which God exists? Here's a crude analogy: God is an all-powerful being, sitting alone in a room. He is all that exists in this room. One day, he creates a chair, separate from Himself.

    Who or what created the room?

    Possibility 2: God is required to be all-encompassing, and has not "created" anything.
    If God is required to be all-encompassing, then He can still be the maker of our known universe. In this case He didn't really "create" anything, but transformed what already existed into a new form. This is similar to the relationship between a nuclear reaction and the First Law of Thermodynamics. "Energy cannot be created or destroyed". A nuclear reaction does not violate this principal because it transforms matter into energy rather than "creating" it. In the same way God transformed what already existed into what we now call our known universe.
    In order for reality to be infinite, it must already simultaneously contain all states. There is nothing which it could lack.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

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  6. #76
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Then who or what created the dimension in which God exists? Here's a crude analogy: God is an all-powerful being, sitting alone in a room. He is all that exists in this room. One day, he creates a chair, separate from Himself.

    Who or what created the room?
    Why does there have to be a room?

    Why can't it be that God creates his own space, and when he created the universe it simply made room for itself? Why does there have to be a separate, all-encompassing abstract aspect to it?
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Why does there have to be a room?

    Why can't it be that God creates his own space, and when he created the universe it simply made room for itself? Why does there have to be a separate, all-encompassing abstract aspect to it?
    Exactly. I really think you're creating the problem yourself Mycroft.

    As for the discussion of 'infinite' - my understanding of 'infinite' was always that it meant 'not finite'. If a thing lacks finitude in any aspect, it is infinite. Of course, contextual uses occur where a lack of finitude in contextually defined respects are what is meant by 'infinite', and I think this is likely the case with much such language regarding God. The notion that God must be finite in every possible way to be God defines God in a different way from that of most traditions, and thereby fails to do business with them. In other words, it's a kind of strange straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The crux of Mycroft's argument is this: Most Judeo-Christian faiths describe God as distinct from the universe. This is incoherent because the universe is traditionally taken to be all that exists. God is maintained to exist and to be distinct from the universe. Hence, simultaneously two incompatible claims are made. God exists and God is nothing (outside of all things that exist). You have not yet furnished a refutation of this view.
    Forgive me, but it seems painfully obvious that those who maintain that God exists in some way distinct from the universe reject the premise that the universe is all that exists.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  8. #78
    Member Fuulie's Avatar
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    The problem is, the the theory of God doesn't really follow logical lines, and thus is almost impossible to prove or disprove using logic. The terms as you define them could mean other things, etc.....

    No, that's not it. I'm not sure how to phrase what I mean.

    How about.... theists in general tend to believe that the concept of God is beyond human understanding, and therefore cannot be correctly rationalized with such human things as logic.

    In any case, you might as well give up. Nothing you you or anybody else says is at all likely to change people's minds on the subject. It might be a good idea to refocus your energy on less abstract concepts.
    Wait, what did you say again?

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Wow, somebody should tell that to...I don't know, the entire southern half of the United States of America?
    *looks at location*

    *looks at quote*

    *rubs eyes, turning back to location again*

    I'm confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well when you get down to the actual definition of knowledge, that's true. Scientists recognize that there is no such thing as absolute truth or fact without some kind of predefined external condition in a closed system.

    For instance, it's scientific fact that 2+2=4, but only because we invented that system ourselves and predefined the conditions of what "2" and "+" and "=" and "4" mean. That's all arbitrary predefinition on our part, so we can make definite, 100% objective statements about it since it operates within a closed system of our own design.

    Religion, on the other hand, does not operate within a closed system and claims that it can have direct knowledge with objective truth on all kinds of issues that are clearly totally unsolvable.

    I'm sorry, but the religion=science parallel is just really poorly conceived and fleshed out even worse.
    The notion that 2+2=4 is a scientific fact seems odd to me. Or like deciding to call anything that seems firmly true 'scientific fact'.

    You seem to be comparing a modernistic understanding of religion to a more contemporary understanding of science, and then criticizing religion for having a modernistic take on things. I could do the same in the other direction - there's certain no shortage of nigh-positivistic proponents of science out there. This really doesn't say anything about science or religion, it just says something about the what religion looks like through the lens of modernism.

    To go back to the first quote, it seems to me that much of the southern part of the US hasn't really gotten past modernism yet, whether regarding religious thought or else. This is particularly true of the louder parts, unfortunately, but that seems to always be the way of it. Looking at the larger stream of historical Christianity, as well as the better educated and brighter Christians today, gives a different view, without running into the problem of being hopelessly vague that you (rightly) criticized earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Surprisingly, I actually don't even feel like explaining this one. There are lots of university level intro to philosophy courses and wikipedia summaries to explain this one to you, and if you can't piece it together then I have no interest in trying.
    Oooh. See, I took four years of philosophy, but I never did take the intro class. I guess that must be why I still maintain this silly God idea. Maybe I can go back and audit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuulie View Post
    It might be a good idea to refocus your energy on less abstract concepts.
    Noooo! *Throws N water on Fuulie (it's magical, you know)* Don't give me your silly arguments about practicality and such things. I like-a the abstract.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  10. #80
    Member Fuulie's Avatar
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    Noooo! *Throws N water on Fuulie (it's magical, you know)* Don't give me your silly arguments about practicality and such things. I like-a the abstract.
    o-o *blinks* Aww. This shirt is dry-clean only.

    Well, That was really aimed towards Mycroft. I see people try to logically prove the (un)existence of God all the time, but it just doesn't work to apply logic to a mostly illogical theory, and by illogical I don't mean 'nonsensical', I mean 'not involving traditional scientific empirical logic'. Also, these people frequently start off with certain assumptions, that is, they set up logical perimeters in which God cannot exist, then explain why he does not exist.

    I have no opinion one way or the other at the moment. Honestly, I'm not sure why I came in here. XD -ambles out-
    Wait, what did you say again?

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