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  1. #41
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Hitchens's response, which I will use here now: "You sound as if you've never read any of the arguments against your position."
    I remember that interview, specifically the phrase you cite. Quite good.


    As an aside, were God to certainly exist, what might that do to the notion of faith?

    Where do certainty and measurable hypothesis intersect?

  2. #42
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Quite simply, "reality" is the sum of all existents. Nothing can exist outside of reality. To rephrase this, approaching the point from the opposite angle, non-reality does not exist. Reality, as the sum of all existents, encompasses all that exists - it is not suspended within non-reality.

    Let's start with an infinite, all-encompassing God. The mythos of most monotheistic religions posits that God is infinite - that He has no beginning and no end. So long as God is all that exists and He is infinite, there is no problem with this assertion. At this point, "God" is interchangeable with "reality" - the two terms are redundant. However, this is an issue of semantics and not ration, so we'll leave that aside.

    Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite. To put this in simpler terms, suddenly we have two entities: God and His universe. They must be suspended in something - as non-reality does not exist, these two entities could not, together, make up all of reality, suspended in non-reality. Whatever it is that they existed within, together, would be reality. Here the problem of infinite regress arises: who or what created the reality that God and His fresh new universe are presently existing within?

    The only solution to this is that reality is infinite. Which is to say that reality is all that is, that, by definition, nothing can exist outside of reality and reality cannot be suspended in a non-existent non-reality.

    Why is this truism not universally accepted? There are three reasons.

    1.) Many people have simply not been introduced to this, Kant's famous formulation.

    2.) Of those who have been introduced to this formulation, many are, for personal reasons, unwilling to accept it. I'll not outline these reasons, as I trust in the intelligence and world wisdom of those reading this to conjure up a good number of cases in point on their own.

    3.) Of those who have been introduced to this formulation, many quite simply lack the imagination and intelligence to reach the level of understanding of the concept of the infinite required to grasp it. I realize that this sort of language makes certain types bristle, but it is the fact of the matter.

    And that's really all there is to it.
    Yeah... that makes sense to me. It explains why the creator-God thing doesn't exist.

    If I were to formulate an idea of God, it would be simply the idea that the universe as a whole is conscious in some way, and everything that exists in it is like an organ. But I'm not sure if there would be a point in that. That's possible, IMO, but unknowable.

  3. #43
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    The point that I think my professor was making is that (to keep with the "puzzle" analogy) is it's helpful to have both sides working together. I realize that it doesn't happen that way but, her point was that it should. Her point was that she believes there is something and that combining science with faith may be more beneficial toward understanding. Even Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." I think she was getting at the same idea.

    Also keep in mind her statement pertained to God or a higher power and not religion.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Sacrator's Avatar
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    I agree with the author and i was a hardcore christian when i was young. God doesn't exist its just a virtual reality for people who dont want to take the time to figure out this reality.

  5. #45
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    The point that I think my professor was making is that (to keep with the "puzzle" analogy) is it's helpful to have both sides working together. I realize that it doesn't happen that way but, her point was that it should. Her point was that she believes there is something and that combining science with faith may be more beneficial toward understanding. Even Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." I think she was getting at the same idea.

    Also keep in mind her statement pertained to God or a higher power and not religion.
    And yeah, I appreciate what she was going for and it was a nice sentiment, but unfortunately the fact remains that if society would lose more by giving up religion or giving up science, the choice is quite obvious.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #46
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    And yeah, I appreciate what she was going for and it was a nice sentiment, but unfortunately the fact remains that if society would lose more by giving up religion or giving up science, the choice is quite obvious.
    Scientific knowledge can always regenerate itself, religion can not. Religion can generate curiosity due to questioning it, which motivates one to use their questioning to develope science in order to disprove religion. Thus, "science without religion is lame". Without religion/motivation there is no science
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  7. #47
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ ...and it's somehow your contention that curiosity doesn't exist without religion?

    ???
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #48
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    how arrogant, full of assumptions about suspending reality and non reality lol.

  9. #49
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ ...and it's somehow your contention that curiosity doesn't exist without religion?

    ???
    No. It is my contention that curiosity doesn't exist without intelligent design
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  10. #50
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    No. It is my contention that curiosity doesn't exist without intelligent design
    Can you elaborate on this a bit?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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