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  1. #21
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I do understand your point and agree to a large extent. There are fanatics on both sides of the issue. You do have scientists saying without a doubt that God does not exist.
    I think this is a result of mistaken understanding of the context in which scientists say this.

    You need to define what "God" is before you say something like that. When scientists declare that God doesn't exist, they are referring specifically to the conception of God as a literal, conscious and self-aware entity who actively manipulates worldly events based on prayer.

    It's pretty obvious that this idea is bullshit, but you can make up your own "vague spiritual force" definition of God if you want--you just stretch and pull and poke and refine until all the inconsistencies come out, at which point you're left with something so far removed from the actual popular definitions of God today that, personally, I think it's a stretch to call it "God" at all.

    Basically, I just get tired of hearing "spiritual" people respond to criticisms of God with, "OH YEAH WELL IT DOESN'T DISPROVE *MY* GOD!"

    Well, if God is your big toe that's fine and good, but your God in that case is not what 99% of people are referring to when they say "God", so really you're just playing semantics.

    Scientists don't claim to be able to 100% disprove these arbitrary vague spiritual force ("God is just like, uhh, the whole like, thing of everything in all of us...dude!") theories of God because those are not what the vast majority of believers in God purport to believe in. That's simply not what they're talking about.

    The vast majority of religious people today, when they say they believe in God, actually do believe in a conscious and self-aware entity with a moral agenda who actively imposes those arbitrary moral directives on humanity. THAT is what "God" means in a realistic context today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    You have more theologians saying without a doubt that a God does exist. The fact is no one knows. So far with what we have it's an unknowable answer. Science changes everyday. We find out new things all the time, what my teacher was saying was that at some point she thought science and religion would meet somewhere in the puzzle.
    The fact is the entire discussion of God is meaningless until you actually decide what "God" means. Your teacher was probably just saying something to appease everybody in your class regardless of position on this sensitive issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Many would say the same about religion. Mystery and the unknown has often been considered a very significant and essential part of religious life and thought.
    Wow, somebody should tell that to...I don't know, the entire southern half of the United States of America?




    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    You'll also find some who, though they may not claim to know everything, claim that everything that can be known must be knowable in the scientific way. So they do claim something like that the entire knowable puzzle is as they see it at the least.
    Well when you get down to the actual definition of knowledge, that's true. Scientists recognize that there is no such thing as absolute truth or fact without some kind of predefined external condition in a closed system.

    For instance, it's scientific fact that 2+2=4, but only because we invented that system ourselves and predefined the conditions of what "2" and "+" and "=" and "4" mean. That's all arbitrary predefinition on our part, so we can make definite, 100% objective statements about it since it operates within a closed system of our own design.

    Religion, on the other hand, does not operate within a closed system and claims that it can have direct knowledge with objective truth on all kinds of issues that are clearly totally unsolvable.

    I'm sorry, but the religion=science parallel is just really poorly conceived and fleshed out even worse.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #22
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    simulatedworldI think this is a result of mistaken understanding of the context in which scientists say this.

    you can make up your own "vague spiritual force" definition of God if you want--you just stretch and pull and poke and refine until all the inconsistencies come out, at which point you're left with something so far removed from the actual popular definitions of God today that, personally, I think it's a stretch to call it "God" at all.
    +1 to you



    Basically, I just get tired of hearing "spiritual" people respond to criticisms of God with, "OH YEAH WELL IT DOESN'T DISPROVE *MY* GOD!"
    I say let people believe what they want.

    The fact is the entire discussion of God is meaningless until you actually decide what "God" means. Your teacher was probably just saying something to appease everybody in your class regardless of position on this sensitive issue.
    Most likely she was dancing around a sensitive topic, and I'm sure she's asked that every semester. She's a molecular biologist so people probably want to know. I don't know what kind of 'God' she believes in or what her definition is. I think that with the case of science and theology coming together it's a good blend if you have brilliant minds from both sides of the aisle. To get the best science possible you need different ideas. Different ideas can come from disagreement.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Quite simply, "reality" is the sum of all existents. Nothing can exist outside of reality. To rephrase this, approaching the point from the opposite angle, non-reality does not exist. Reality, as the sum of all existents, encompasses all that exists - it is not suspended within non-reality.
    Bolded is redundant.

    Simple refutation: If God exists, he is part of reality. That, in essence, refutes the entire argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite. To put this in simpler terms, suddenly we have two entities: God and His universe. They must be suspended in something -<--------> as non-reality does not exist,<-------> these two entities could not, together, make up all of reality, suspended in non-reality. Whatever it is that they existed within, together, would be reality. Here the problem of infinite regress arises: who or what created the reality that God and His fresh new universe are presently existing within?
    Riddled with metaphysical assumptions/fallacies. In order:-

    Assuming time exists outside the Universe.
    Assuming something "exists" outside the Universe and assuming what "exists" outside the Universe depends on the Universe. (One cannot observe outside the Universe)
    Redundant.
    The two above.
    Simple answer: God. Another one: There is no "reality" they are existing within.

    One of the basic ideas of "God", is that it ends infinite regresses. As shown in the simplest cosmological argument. Not that it is actually necessary to end metaphysical regresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    - The universe is everything.
    - God existed before the universe.
    That's overly simplified. The flaw in that should be obvious though.

    Basically:

    P1: Nothing exists outside the universe.
    P2: To exist, God has to be outside the universe.
    C: Therefore god/anything outside the Universe does not exist.

    The first premise is begging the question, if the conclusion is taken into account (Some people use "Universe" and "All of reality" interchangeably, the conclusion shows that does not apply here. If it did, the fallacy would simply be absurdity, a statement with no reasoning behind it).

  4. #24
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Anyone who says that is inherently not in the field of science.

    P.S.,

    No, you will not find any scientists who claim to have 100% absolute knowledge of the workings of the universe.

    You'll find some who are rather impatient with explaining why literal/dogmatic interpretations of religion are clearly absurd, but that's about it.
    I think Richard Dawkins fairly clearly insists that reality is blue.

  5. #25
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I do understand your point and agree to a large extent. There are fanatics on both sides of the issue. You do have scientists saying without a doubt that God does not exist. You have more theologians saying without a doubt that a God does exist. The fact is no one knows. So far with what we have it's an unknowable answer. Science changes everyday. We find out new things all the time, what my teacher was saying was that at some point she thought science and religion would meet somewhere in the puzzle.
    its called quantum physics
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
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    J.Krishnamurti

  6. #26
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite. To put this in simpler terms, suddenly we have two entities: God and His universe. They must be suspended in something - as non-reality does not exist, these two entities could not, together, make up all of reality, suspended in non-reality. Whatever it is that they existed within, together, would be reality. Here the problem of infinite regress arises: who or what created the reality that God and His fresh new universe are presently existing within?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Mycroft, how do you think concepts like pantheism and panentheism fit into the philosophical framework here?

    Could you please define these terms for me Jen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft
    Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite. To put this in simpler terms, suddenly we have two entities: God and His universe. They must be suspended in something - as non-reality does not exist, these two entities could not, together, make up all of reality, suspended in non-reality. Whatever it is that they existed within, together, would be reality. Here the problem of infinite regress arises: who or what created the reality that God and His fresh new universe are presently existing within?


    Speaking from Christianity's standpoint, God is:

    • Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, Unique (1 Timothy 1:17)
    • Omnipotent [All Powerful] (Matthew 19:26, Luke 1:37)
    • Omniscient [All Knowing] (1 John 3:20, Hebrews 4:13, Colossians 2:3, Matthew 10:30)
    • Omnipresent (this is hinted at, though there is no one verse that says it plainly in black and white...I believe Ephesians 4:6 comes closest, of those I've found so far).
    I point you to the first bullet's verse. God has always existed, thus making the "who created existence question" moot. There was no start point, nor will there be an end point. As he says in Exodus 3:14, He Is. He Is everything. All creation is a part of Him. Though he does not control all of creation all of the time, despite having the capability to do so. As such, we, individually sentient humans have been given the ability to do things apart from His will (though, I do not believe that to be advisable). It would seem that the angels also have that ability. There's also non sentient matter like rocks, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, etc; no ability there, but they are just as much a piece of God. Everything we can see in the Universe. All came from God and is a part of God, but is not necessarily a part of God's individual consciousness.

    Meaning, I am not God, as we typically think of Him in existential terms, though I am a part of Him, as is all existence. Probably. It's my best guess.

    And that's really all there is to it.
    *Irish Accent* OOOOOH REAAALY Mike? May I call you Mike? Or is it Michelle? I've read the book too.
    Love is the point.

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    Could you please define these terms for me Jen?
    Loosely:

    Pantheism = Nature/Universe is God (no more, no less)
    Panentheism = God is Nature/Universe but transcends it timelessly as well
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    God does exist. God has a very real tangible impact on all of our lives, including yours, whether or not you choose to admit it. God exists in our collective psyche. Many people are guided by their belief and many of those beliefs have a common foundation. Whether you are an atheist or agnostic like me, you can choose to completely ignore the issue and question and still be influenced by believers close to and around you. You might say your life is guided by god if you avoid sending your kids to a religious school. I went to a Catholic primary school and even went to Sunday school. I have an Irish aunt. Having been indoctrinated with god from that early an age must have had some influence on my life.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    God does exist. God has a very real tangible impact on all of our lives, including yours, whether or not you choose to admit it. God exists in our collective psyche. Many people are guided by their belief and many of those beliefs have a common foundation. Whether you are an atheist or agnostic like me, you can choose to completely ignore the issue and question and still be influenced by believers close to and around you. You might say your life is guided by god if you avoid sending your kids to a religious school. I went to a Catholic primary school and even went to Sunday school. I have an Irish aunt. Having been indoctrinated with god from that early an age must have has some influence on my life.
    Flying spaghetti monster must exist. Everyone has been influenced by pasta somehow.

  10. #30
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Just in case you didn't "get it", I said God exists in our minds. We make god real.

    EDIT: I did not read your response correctly. You didn't "get it". Nobody is influenced by flying spaghetti monsters.

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