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  1. #161
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    I grew up under Baptist Christianity, and my dad (an INTJ) has been exploring ministry work for some time. However, neither of us subscribe to the "fundie" Christianity; he was more interested in actually studying the Bible, not taking what the preacher said at face value.

    Through numerous Bible studies at home, I've come to understand a key secret about the Bible: to fully understand the Bible in context, you have to understand the background of the writer or the passage. Each writer lived in a different culture, and each passage ties to that culture or something written elsewhere in the Bible.

    So on that note, I thought I'd contribute to the discussion by sharing the rational Christian's answer to how God's existence relates to our universe. It is a bit long, though. This was as short as I could edit it.

    (Before anyone argues, I'd like to point out that the term "fundie" is often applied to irrational Christians, and I try to avoid them as much as I can.)

    It says in the Book of Isaiah that prior to creating the universe, God had his own eternal realm, Heaven, populated by what we call angels. He created the angels to be a creature that would love him unconditionally and of his own will.

    His Number One angel was Lucifer, regarded as the most beautiful of the angels. Lucifer tried to overthrow God out of jealousy, forcing God to banish him and the third of the angels that rebelled with him. Lucifer became known as Satan, and his angels became twisted into demons. God creates a new realm referred to in the Bible as a "lake of fire" as punishment for their crimes. However, they will not be sent to it until the end of our universe.

    Instead of creating a new Heavenly creature, God created a whole new universe centered around a single planet, Earth. God went to all that trouble because he wanted to create his new creature, man, in an environment all his own. However, man still retained the same purpose as the angels, so he still had the unconditional-love capabilities and freedom of will as the angels.

    When man disobeyed God, God condemned man to the lake of fire with Satan and his demons. However, Adam's sin was not out of direct hatred of God like Satan's was. His motive is never stated in the Bible, but I'm thinking it may have been so Eve wouldn't be punished alone.

    Because of this, God creates two new realms: Paradise and Hell. God condemns man to share Satan's punishment, but offers man a respite.

    If man continued to love him, he would placed in Paradise at the end of his life. After Christ's crucifixion, Paradise is eliminated, and this group (officially termed "believers") is relocated to Heaven. Now when a believer dies, he spends eternity with God himself.

    Christ's death was meant to be God's love sacrifice to man, in essence meeting man halfway. Now, instead of having to kill lambs to prove his love, man needed only do for God what God had done for man; acknowledge Christ's sacrifice as God's display of love to man.

    When a person does this, God implants a version of himself (the Holy Ghost) into the new believer, giving the believer a way of having a relationship with God before dying and joining him in Heaven.

    If he rejected God, God would have no dealings with him. Upon death, these people would be placed in Hell, which will later be rolled into the lake of fire with Satan and his demons. This will happen after the universe reaches its end as described in Revelation.

    Satan hates God and everything God loves, including man. Satan also knows that he is doomed to be punished. He also knows that God still has love left for unbelievers. If he's going down, he might as well give himself as much company and God as much heartache as possible in the meantime. When they die, God's not gonna do anything with 'em, so...

    The result in the end will be God merging his Heaven with a newly-purified Earth, turning everything into Genesis 2.0.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    This reminds me 09/09/09 is cuming up.

    999; some say it is the devils number. Or Lucifer’s number.

    I however have seen enough heavy metal album covers (which as we know are the uncontroverted authority in all matters occult, esp. dark occult) to know that when you turn something upside down or inverse it, it means the opposite.

    Therefore if God does exist a priori the Devil exists and if the Devils son, the Beast's, number is 666 does 999 mean the opposite and therefore a day of good luck/positive revelations?

    Also some say Gods number is 333 or 3 (the holy trinity) therefore since 3 x 333 equals 999...

    999 isn't the devil's number, it's the number of woman. 6 is the number of man. Yeah, hence 69.

    But in New Age beliefs/Wicca/etc. 9 is the number of the witch in a non-satanic sense. Of course, some religious people believe all witchcraft is Satanic, which is why some people think 999 is a number of the devil.

    Personally I don't think the devil has a number. I think it's a matter of Christianity demonizing the European Pagan religions they sought to convert members from.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    999 isn't the devil's number, it's the number of woman. 6 is the number of man. Yeah, hence 69.

    But in New Age beliefs/Wicca/etc. 9 is the number of the witch in a non-satanic sense. Of course, some religious people believe all witchcraft is Satanic, which is why some people think 999 is a number of the devil.

    Personally I don't think the devil has a number. I think it's a matter of Christianity demonizing the European Pagan religions they sought to convert members from.
    Actually, that number is given in the Bible, but not to the Devil.

    It's attributed to a "beast" in Revelation serving under the Antichrist. In Revelation, it is said that a single government would obtain power over the entire world, with the Antichrist being the executive ruler over it. The "beast" would likely be a religious organization affiliated with this government, with the number "666" being the representatives on that organization's council. Revelation mentions a "false prophet," who will likely be this organization's supreme executive officer, who will serve adjacent to the Antichrist.

    I should point out that Revelation happens to be the one book in the Bible most saturated with symbolisms and metaphorical references.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MFJAGgernaut-B View Post
    Actually, that number is given in the Bible, but not to the Devil.

    It's attributed to a "beast" in Revelation serving under the Antichrist. In Revelation, it is said that a single government would obtain power over the entire world, with the Antichrist being the executive ruler over it. The "beast" would likely be a religious organization affiliated with this government, with the number "666" being the representatives on that organization's council. Revelation mentions a "false prophet," who will likely be this organization's supreme executive officer, who will serve adjacent to the Antichrist.

    I should point out that Revelation happens to be the one book in the Bible most saturated with symbolisms and metaphorical references.
    Oh I see. That's why there's so many American Christians who believe that Christians can't be liberal. They fear this one world government.

    Does the Bible actually SAY one world government, or is this just how certain sects, churches, and cults interpret it? Revelation is awfully symbolic.

  5. #165
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    Are you still a Baptist MFJAGgernaut-B?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh I see. That's why there's so many American Christians who believe that Christians can't be liberal. They fear this one world government.

    Does the Bible actually SAY one world government, or is this just how certain sects, churches, and cults interpret it? Revelation is awfully symbolic.
    It doesn't literally use the term "one world government" but MFJAGgernaut-B gave a good answer of what the Bible does say.

    Concerning Christianity and the concept of a "one world government" is a little more complex; but long story short yes the liberal conception of such is very much incompatible with Christian teachings. In fact Pope Benedict XVI addresses such issues in his latest book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It doesn't literally use the term "one world government" but MFJAGgernaut-B gave a good answer of what the Bible does say.

    Concerning Christianity and the concept of a "one world government" is a little more complex; but long story short yes the liberal conception of such is very much incompatible with Christian teachings. In fact Pope Benedict XVI addresses such issues in his latest book.
    To me it sounds like Illuminati conspiracy theory rather than Biblical teaching. Also, couldn't some Christians interpret the world-wide Roman Catholic church, presided by the pope, as some sort of "one world government"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Also, couldn't some Christians interpret the world-wide Roman Catholic church, presided by the pope, as some sort of "one world government"?
    They could, and many have done so. Of course those who do so are guilty of creating an anarchronism - since the ultimate nature of Papal authority is spiritual not temporal. Of course the Pope is head of a state(Vatican City, and earlier the Papal territories), and that largely was done so as to ensure the independence of the church from undue influence of secular authorities - as was the case with the Eastern Churches.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    To me it sounds like Illuminati conspiracy theory rather than Biblical teaching. Also, couldn't some Christians interpret the world-wide Roman Catholic church, presided by the pope, as some sort of "one world government"?
    I believe a similar message was given from several reformers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    At this point I could only restate. If you are genuinely interested in coming to terms with the concept I attempt to present, read over my posts again and contemplate.

    I believe that I present my ideas in a manner that is remarkably clear given the subject matter. With high level concepts, there must be a meeting in between.
    I've read over your posts and they don't really make sense. What I get from them is too much intuition and not enough thinking. I.e. INTJ's communicate their ideas with thinking. You haven't clearly explained the steps in your reasoning process. Let me spell out some things that don't make sense.

    A) Your "definition" of infinite. You've never spelled it out. You've only told me what it isn't, so I've had to keep guessing what you really mean. The closest to a clear definition of infinite you've given is "not finite" which doesn't clear anything up at all.

    B) You conclude reality must be infinite? Why? One problem is I don't understand your definition of infinite, but additionally your reasoning steps look like A-> B-> C -> Z to me. Could you elaborate more? Aside: Also I'm not sure you're aware of this, but the known universe as defined by modern science is most definitely finite according to either my definition or your definition.

    C) Even if you clear up problems A) and B) I don't see how your argument can be anything but a straw man. You are asserting that the common view of the Judeo-Christian God is one thing, and then your description does not fit the description of God from any monotheist that I've encountered.

    If I am misinterpreting your posts it is because you are not communicating effectively. This should be apparant since other posters have been making comments similar to mine.
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  10. #170
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    how very ingenious, so it does.

    Shhh don't tell Also God spelled backwards is dog. Coincidence?

    Lets play letterman with your name too by shifting the letters around. A Nonabsorbent Ma, A Baboons Remnant, A Nabobs Ornament, Bananas Robot Men, Manana Boobs Rent, and A Man Nbobs a Tenor…music to the ears the list goes on…

    This reminds me 09/09/09 is cuming up.

    999; some say it is the devils number. Or Lucifer’s number.

    I however have seen enough heavy metal album covers (which as we know are the uncontroverted authority in all matters occult, esp. dark occult) to know that when you turn something upside down or inverse it, it means the opposite.

    Therefore if God does exist a priori the Devil exists and if the Devils son, the Beast's, number is 666 does 999 mean the opposite and therefore a day of good luck/positive revelations?

    Also some say Gods number is 333 or 3 (the holy trinity) therefore since 3 x 333 equals 999...
    "A Baboons Remnant" - my favourite. Well done.

    A challenge. Assign a number to each letter: a=1, b=2,c=3, etc. Create a palindromic number. What is the name?

    All the best. Good luck.


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