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  1. #121
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    There is no problem if God is not required to be all-encompassing in every way.

    I'd like to know what dictionary you are using. I am quite familiar with the concept of infinity and have never heard infinite used in the way you are using it. Infinite is an adjective that describes something quantitatively. It is not qualitative in nature.

    Well I haven't read Kant, so I don't know in what capacity your post relates to what he wrote. However based on what you've written it appears to me that you've unintentionally created a straw man. Your original post says that the Judeo-Christian God is believed to be a certain way. After hearing your definition of "infinity" I don't know of anyone who holds that God is the way you are describing Him.
    While I'm glad to see that SW is elaborating upon this concept in other manners, he is approaching the concept from an angle other than from that which I did at the outset of this thread. My point was a simple one: any finite object must adhere within reality. A finite object would end. What would be beyond its borders? Non-reality? This is by definition impossible. The only solution is that reality is infinite.

    An important note is that I use the term "borders" metaphorically; an object finite in any respect will end in some respect. We are not only discussing spatial or temporal finiteness, a point which several respondents have failed to grasp. And yes, while the definition of the infinite I must use for the purposes of this discussion may not be one of the more common definitions, it's still a valid one, and I've gone to pains to make it as clear as possible what I mean in my use of the term.

    As for your final point, I'm unaware of any major branch of Christianity that would be content with what you pose: that God is finite, meaning that He merely adheres within reality, meaning that while He may appear godlike from our perspective, He is not the creator of Reality, merely one of its inhabitants.

    Liquid, if you are genuinely interested in approaching my thesis, as it is, in this thread, I'll happily do what I can to try to further elucidate. As it stands, you'll pardon me if I can only believe that you're grasping for grounds, semantic or otherwise, to dismiss it.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  2. #122
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    No, that would fall under the "already-existing things" side that I already denied. In the case of creation ex nihilo he doesn't use the material that was not created by him, he creates from nothing (or, in latin, ex nihilo). I have to assume we're having some problem in communication here, but I can't for the life of my figure out what it is...
    Regardless of how He creates, if there is a place for his creations, he is not infinite. See my previous analogy about the room. So long as He is all that exists, we can imagine him as a single being sitting alone in an empty room. However, if He's to create other objects separate and distinct from Himself, they will begin to fill the room. They adhere within the room, here a stand-in for reality. The question then becomes, what created the room? This is the problem of infinite regress.

    Before responding to the specific terms above, bear in mind that, as I've stressed numerous times, I use these terms allegorically.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #123
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Regardless of how He creates, if there is a place for his creations, he is not infinite. See my previous analogy about the room. So long as He is all that exists, we can imagine him as a single being sitting alone in an empty room. However, if he's to create other objects separate and distinct from Himself, they will begin to fill the room. They adhere within the room, here a stand-in for reality. The question then becomes, what created the room? This is the problem of infinite regress.
    Wouldn't the question be who created the room anyway? I don't get why that question would only come up after other beings pop into existence as well.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Wouldn't the question be who created the room anyway? I don't get why that question would only come up after other beings pop into existence as well.
    You're absolutely correct.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Regardless of how He creates, if there is a place for his creations, he is not infinite. See my previous analogy about the room. So long as He is all that exists, we can imagine him as a single being sitting alone in an empty room. However, if he's to create other objects separate and distinct from Himself, they will begin to fill the room. They adhere within the room, here a stand-in for reality. The question then becomes, what created the room? This is the problem of infinite regress.

    Before responding to the specific terms above, bear in mind that, as I've stressed numerous times, I use these terms allegorically.
    Yeah, maybe it's just that I'm not very inclined to accept the limitations of the analogy when it comes to drawing conclusions of what can't be. Again, I deny the need for the room, and think that the way you're using the notion of an infinite God is drastically different from the way the unbelievably vast numbers of theists use it.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Yeah, maybe it's just that I'm not very inclined to accept the limitations of the analogy when it comes to drawing conclusions of what can't be.
    Given that you responded within five minutes of my post, I can't help but believe that perhaps you've not given the concept underlying the analogy adequate contemplation.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Given that you responded within five minutes of my post, I can't help but believe that perhaps you've not given the concept underlying the analogy adequate contemplation.
    But... it's the same analogy you've been using for days.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Eventually it comes down to the fact that God is indefinable. And therefor discussion about the definition of God is futile.
    Exactly. My reasoning exactly for being agnostic.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    But... it's the same analogy you've been using for days.
    Yes, and in every case you've clearly responded almost immediately upon reading the post and then, content that you've found some grounds upon which to dismiss the idea (one of the greatest and most lasting philosophical tenants, incidentally), given it no further thought until it came time to read the latest post and respond in the same manner again.

    Either that or you have indeed been contemplating it for days and have still failed to grasp it. You seem more intelligent than that.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #130
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Eventually it comes down to the fact that God is indefinable. And therefor discussion about the definition of God is futile.
    Yeah. Seriously, it strikes me as somewhat arrogant on both sides, that one side is so certain there IS a specific God, and the other side is so certain there is NO God. Personally, I think they're both jumping to conclusions, because this concept is supposed to represent something beyond our comprehension. If it weren't, then it wouldn't be worthy of being called a God.

    It seems that reason is very rarely effective once a particular worldview has lodged itself in someone's mind, so whatever shapes ones views on religion, it certainly isn't logic. Probably emotional predispositions and experience/upbringing.

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