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  1. #111
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The point is that there is no reason to say that God made the universe, as the universe could have made itself. On that note, there is also no reason to say that God is self-created, as the universe could also be self-created.
    haha... what? How could an inanimate object "create" anything?
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  2. #112
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    There is no problem if God is not required to be all-encompassing in every way.


    Well I haven't read Kant, so I don't know in what capacity your post relates to what he wrote. However based on what you've written it appears to me that you've unintentionally created a straw man. Your original post says that the Judeo-Christian God is believed to be a certain way. After hearing your definition of "infinity" I don't know of anyone who holds that God is the way you are describing Him.
    You're not talking about the Judeo-Christian God if you're not talking about the Alpha and Omega, He that is that He is, burning bush, let my people go, I created everything, I made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights as punishment, turn Sarah into stone for looking back as I destroyed her home God. FTW.
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  3. #113
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    There is no problem if God is not required to be all-encompassing in every way..

    Suppose we grant this. God is infinite in only one regard, just like an line that is infinite only in the direction that it is moving in.

    The problem of separability of God from the universe remains a legitimate one. Suppose God is the primary entity of the universe or the first irreducible entity. Suppose also that God and the universe are distinct. In that case, did the universe come into existence on its own right. (Came from nothing, therefore was not created by god and hence the principle of creationism is rendered false.) Or is it the case that part of God was used to create the universe? In that case the universe and God are not separable and it is a mistake to maintain that God can be all good and the world evil.

    That is very troubling for conventional theologies because they do indeed maintain that God is all good and the world inhabitants evil and thereby insist on the separation between God and the world.

    Again, never mind the argument about infinity, suppose God is finite or only partially infinite. How do we deal with the separability problem that I outlined above.

    In summary, it entails two potential problems.

    (1) The universe was not created by God and hence orginated on its own right and one that is completely distinct from His creative fiat.

    (2) The universe is part of God, therefore God cannot be all good and the universe evil. That is the case because the universe originated from God, therefore every property that the universe has (wickedness in this case) derived from God and therefore constitutes a part of his identity.
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  4. #114
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    (Came from nothing, therefore was not created by god and hence the principle of creationism is rendered false.)
    Could you elaborate upon this? If the universe came from nothing then why couldn't God be the cause of it?
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    (Stuff)
    That is very troubling for conventional theologies
    (more stuff)
    No, it's really not. Original creation ex nihilo, which seems to be a pretty traditional belief, solves this.

    Even if I create something, I most likely don't use some part of myself - I use the things around me and put them together in whatever way. If God creates ex nihilo, he most certainly doesn't use some already-existing part of himself, or anything else.

    Again, and as others have said, I really think you guys are making these problems yourselves and I'm having a hard time seeing what's so difficult about it that.

    (Also, I plan on responding to simulatedworld very soon. I've been a bit busy lately, and couldn't resist responding to this first.)

    Edit: Hah, you beat me to it this time The_Liquid_Laser! Well played.
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  6. #116
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    The question, "Why does anything exist, and how did it get here?" is definitely interesting. But we have to admit that regardless of the answer, everything is here and it does exist.

    Why does anything exist? Well, why not? I've wondered before why things have taken shape in the way they have, but when you're in love with life the question doesn't seem to bother you. I say the best way to find the answer is not to try to erase all thought of the temporal shape of things and try to go to the basics or think abstractly, but just observe everything around us and let it teach us.

    And when I observe nature and everything that exists, it all screams to me that basic reality is life and love, and there's no particular reason why anything should or should not exist. I'm just glad it does.
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  7. #117
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Could you elaborate upon this? If the universe came from nothing then why couldn't God be the cause of it?
    By definition, this statements means that God is not the cause of it.

    If the universe came from something, it has a cause (God may be the cause). If the universe came from nothing, there is no cause (hence, nothing can be the cause and therefore God cannot be the cause of the universe to exist).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    No, it's really not. Original creation ex nihilo, which seems to be a pretty traditional belief, solves this.

    Even if I create something, I most likely don't use some part of myself - I use the things around me and put them together in whatever way. If God creates ex nihilo, he most certainly doesn't use some already-existing part of himself, or anything else.

    Again, and as others have said, I really think you guys are making these problems yourselves and I'm having a hard time seeing what's so difficult about it that.

    (Also, I plan on responding to simulatedworld very soon. I've been a bit busy lately, and couldn't resist responding to this first.)

    Edit: Hah, you beat me to it this time The_Liquid_Laser! Well played.
    Okay, suppose that I am the only thing that exists in the universe. If I want to make more things, I have to use parts of myself. I cannot use things around me to create new things as they do not exist because I am the only thing that exists.

    Hence, if God is the sole cause of all things, then he could not have made other things from things around him and not of things that are part of his nature. (As he is the sole cause of all things, there is nothing around him that was not once part of Him. Hence, in principle anything that God uses to create things must have come from within Him and not from without.)

    If God used things that are outside of him (or around him) to create the universe, then the doctrine of Judeo-Christian theology that God is the sole creator of all things is false. (Remember, in the book of Genesis it says that God made the universe (everything that is) in 7 days?)
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  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    By definition, this statements means that God is not the cause of it.

    If the universe came from something, it has a cause (God may be the cause). If the universe came from nothing, there is no cause (hence, nothing can be the cause and therefore God cannot be the cause of the universe to exist).



    Okay, suppose that I am the only thing that exists in the universe. If I want to make more things, I have to use parts of myself. I cannot use things around me to create new things as they do not exist because I am the only thing that exists.

    Hence, if God is the sole cause of all things, then he could not have made other things from things around him and not of things that are part of his nature.

    If God used things that are outside of him (or around him) to create the universe, then the doctrine of Judeo-Christian theology that God is the sole creator of all things is false. (Remember, in the book of Genesis it says that God made the universe (everything that is) in 7 days?)
    You're asserting that creation could only occur from oneself or from other already-existing things. This is precisely what creation ex nihilo denies.
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  9. #119
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    You're asserting that creation could only occur from oneself or from other already-existing things. This is precisely what creation ex nihilo denies.
    In that case ex nihilo proclaims the doctrine of creationism as false. God did not create all things in that case. He merely used the material that was not created by him to create our world.

    This means that God is not the sole cause (or the sole creator) of all things. This undermines the doctrine of creationism.
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  10. #120
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    No, that would fall under the "already-existing things" side that I already denied. In the case of creation ex nihilo he doesn't use the material that was not created by him, he creates from nothing (or, in latin, ex nihilo). I have to assume we're having some problem in communication here, but I can't for the life of my figure out what it is...
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