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  1. #101
    Sniffles
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    As I said:
    I'm not bothering with this discussion because it's following the same formula other discussions about religion here follow - and my participation seems to only complicate and disrupt the normal flow of normal discourse on such matters. Rather than do that, I'll just let you people carry on.
    So yeah........

  2. #102
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Well, I'd enjoy hearing your perspective in a PM, then, if you have the time/inclination.

    I'll even promise not to respond if that helps =/
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #103
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Peguy, if you can demonstrate an alternative solution to the problem of infinite regress, you have my total assurance that those of us who strive to weigh arguments on the basis of the strength of their premises and logic will approach your solution accordingly.

    As it stands, I can't help but note that in this thread, as well as similar threads, your line of reasoning can be outlined as:

    1. Sometimes when I post my arguments, other posters demonstrate that they are not rationally sound.

    2. I dislike this.

    3. Therefore, not only shall I refuse to participate at all, I shall huffily bring attention to my refusal to participate.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #104
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Peguy, if you can demonstrate an alternative solution to the problem of infinite regress, you have my total assurance that those of us who strive to weigh arguments on the basis of the strength of their premises and logic will approach your solution accordingly.

    As it stands, I can't help but note that in this thread, as well as similar threads, your line of reasoning can be outlined as:

    1. Sometimes when I post my arguments, other posters demonstrate that they are not rationally sound.

    2. I dislike this.

    3. Therefore, not only shall I refuse to participate at all, I shall huffily bring attention to my refusal to participate.
    A non-appearance is sometimes more effective than an appearance.

    Ask God. Or Peguy.

  5. #105
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Eventually it comes down to the fact that God is indefinable. And therefor discussion about the definition of God is futile.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #106
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ Can you explain why?

    I know you don't want a bunch of NTP attack dogs on your ass, but I'm still very curious as to what exactly your position on this is and why.
    Well, I promise just to read, I'm not going to respond... if Peg wants to invest a bit. (I'm in "absorb" mode.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #107
    . Blank's Avatar
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    This whole argument is stupid.

    The premise isn't that a god does not exist, it's that the Christian god cannot exist.

    Note: I'm lazy about reading threads that go off to nowhere like this, so I may not reply to a response.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #108
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ Don't worry; nobody's going to give that kind of post much of a meaningful response anyway, so we're not really missing out.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #109
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Now, this infinite God, in the tradition of most monotheistic religions, one day sets himself to creating a universe. Here is where the problem arises - the moment He creates a universe - or anything for that matter - separate from Himself, he is no longer infinite.
    Didn't bother to read any responses, but this logic doesn't really work for me.

    Even numbers are infinite. Say even numbers created odd numbers. Are even numbers somehow not infinite now?

    You can be infinite in a finite number of dimensions. Nothing in those other dimensions take away from your infinity.

    Edit: or are you saying that God is infinite in all dimensions? That should be explicitly defined IMO.

  10. #110
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Indeed it does. My assertion, a rephrasing of Kant's formulation, is that our allegorical room was indeed "always there". This formulation is the only available solution to the problem of infinite regress. If God created the room as a space in which he adheres, i.e. as a thing separate from Himself, the problems we've been discussing arise.
    There is no problem if God is not required to be all-encompassing in every way.


    I am using the term "infinite" to mean "not finite", a definition in which I have a good degree of confidence.
    I'd like to know what dictionary you are using. I am quite familiar with the concept of infinity and have never heard infinite used in the way you are using it. Infinite is an adjective that describes something quantitatively. It is not qualitative in nature.

    As reality is infinite, it contains all states simultaneously. The notion that there was another state that it could become would indicate that there is a state which exists separate from it, thereby making it finite.

    I began this thread because I believed I could provide a manner of approaching Kant's formulation that may be enlightening or at least of interest to some readers. If my presentation of this philosophical tenant has not made it more approachable for you I apologize. Perhaps in the future another, more readily-digestible manner of presentation of Kant's formulation will occur to me.

    However, I would submit that, just as I did, you must be prepared to ask yourself in honesty if you have genuinely found the ration of Kant's formulation to be flawed, or if you're merely searching for grounds on which to dismiss it as the implications would not be congenial to your present beliefs.
    Well I haven't read Kant, so I don't know in what capacity your post relates to what he wrote. However based on what you've written it appears to me that you've unintentionally created a straw man. Your original post says that the Judeo-Christian God is believed to be a certain way. After hearing your definition of "infinity" I don't know of anyone who holds that God is the way you are describing Him.
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