Religious belief as a mental illness (with your hosts, Erm & Eck!)

[LEGERdeMAIN]

It's more foolish to believe you know the unknown than to know what cannot be known. That's from a poem by Cummings.

 

[Thalassa]

Since religion has played a huge part in the vast majority, if not all, of human cultures world-wide since written history began, from a scientific viewpoint it's highly unlikely that religion is "mental illness."

 

[AOA]

... And the talk on religion is once again, how our friend (Eck) gets himself publicized.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

religion isn't a mental illness but religious belief certainly can be. Religion will be with us until the species dies off (or destroys itself) if not in the form of worshiping God(s), than in the form of worshiping Science(a select few), Virtual Reality(already happening!), Rationalism(300 years and still going) or some other such Idea.

 

[Mole]

A mental illness is a delusion not shared by those around you.

While a religious belief is a delusion shared by those around you.

Therefore a religious belief is not a mental illness.

 

[Oom]

A mental illness is a delusion not shared by those around you.

While a religious belief is a delusion shared by those around you.

Therefore a religious belief is not a mental illness.

+1

Loony bins are for a combination of both. People sharing their delusions everywhere!

 

[Thalassa]

+1

Loony bins are for a combination of both. People sharing their delusions everywhere!

Mental hospitals are to protect the suicidal from themselves, and society from the homicidal.

This thread is an exercise in irony: a bunch of ignorant opinions spouted by arrogant people who imagine that they're smarter than others.

 

[AOA]

Moreover, I don't see relevance with what religious belief has to do with the whole of things, such as mental illness. I remember a couple of years ago I (incidentally) surfed an anti-Islam forum called Faith Freedom, and I must say - one has to wonder what makes people go to that mediocre way of thinking...

(Using that forum as reference.)

 

[sunshinebrighter]

Brain Differences Found Between Believers In God And Non-believers

Compared to non-believers, the religious participants showed significantly less activity in the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC), a portion of the brain that helps modify behavior by signaling when attention and control are needed, usually as a result of some anxiety-producing event like making a mistake. The stronger their religious zeal and the more they believed in God, the less their ACC fired in response to their own errors, and the fewer errors they made.

"You could think of this part of the brain like a cortical alarm bell that rings when an individual has just made a mistake or experiences uncertainty," says lead author Inzlicht, who teaches and conducts research at the University of Toronto Scarborough. "We found that religious people or even people who simply believe in the existence of God show significantly less brain activity in relation to their own errors. They're much less anxious and feel less stressed when they have made an error."

I wish I could feel less stressed when I make a mistake.

Looking back in history almost all cultures had some sort of belief in god like beings controlling the world around them. I don't think it's a mental illness, but I think that it's possible that we are in the mid-process of evolving and shedding our need to believe in god due to the advancement of technology.

If I was a cave woman I think stress and anxiety would slow me down when it comes to hunting for food. Believing what is happening to me is what God wants will help me be less stressed because it is something that is not in my control. Less feelings of responsibilty.

Now in this modern world people who are more likely to feel anxiety are not dying from hunger as often. Their genes for this certain brain pattern will more likely to be passed down. If it's genetic of course.

Don't take the half assed theory above too seriously. I made it up in like a minute after reading the web article.

 

[Thalassa]

1) Evolution doesn't happen that quickly. People have just formed different opinions and lifestyles based on modern society and scientific beliefs.

2) People are still extremely stressed, and it's affecting their lives. We have something called psychiatry now, and lovely medications to go along with it.

3) I don't see having less anxiety as a bad thing.

 

[AOA]

Don't take the half assed theory above too seriously. I made it up in like a minute after reading the web article.

lol, thanks for the tip...

 

[sunshinebrighter]

1) Evolution doesn't happen that quickly. People have just formed different opinions and lifestyles based on modern society and scientific beliefs.

I was thinking more along the lines of mirco evolution. The minority genetic trait becoming the majority. It may not be evolution at all. Our brain developing in a different direction due to the different stimulation and nutrients can very well be causing this too.

2) People are still extremely stressed, and it's affecting their lives. We have something called psychiatry now, and lovely medications to go along with it.

I never said people weren't stressed.

 

[Grayscale]

Brain Differences Found Between Believers In God And Non-believers


I wish I could feel less stressed when I make a mistake.

Perhaps it is not the belief that God controls everything (except our own mind, conveniently) but simply relinquishing the desire to control everything around you because you wouldn't need to; not because everything that happens is necessarily God's will, but what little knowledge we have of what God means.

For us to say there is or isn't a God is ridiculous. We make buildings, roads, cars... God creates space, galaxies, time... souls? Hypothetically the vast difference in our thinking alone deems our opinion irrelevant.

 

[Thalassa]

I was thinking more along the lines of mirco evolution. The minority genetic trait becoming the majority. It may not be evolution at all. Our brain developing in a different direction due to the different stimulation and nutrients can very well be causing this too.

I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with evolution. It has much more to do with information. We have changed what it means to be human in the past 150 years with technology.

 

[EcK]

It is not a rational mistake to see everything as coming from divine origins or from chaotic chance

However, it is a rational mistake to speculate about divine possibilities on the basis of human tendencies, lapses in judgement, or [what you perceive to be] ignorance.

I have met lots of people with spiritual beliefs who are not well versed in logic, but I have also met nearly as many people like yourself who cannot see the fallacy caused by their own bias--such people prize intelligence, desire to be viewed as and to view themselves as intelligent, and would not pass up an opportunity to say, "I am intelligent, you are not, you have spiritual beliefs and I do not, therefore spirituality is for the unintelligent".

What is more foolish, to know what is not or cannot be known, or to pretend to know everything?

Notice I never stated things such as 'god doesn't exist'
I simply said that believing it does seems delusional (as in, the exact definition of the term) in the face of an apparent absence of any way for a human being to learn about such thing, the elusiveness of everything that is called the be 'the paranormal'.
And I don't see how it's a mistake to interpret sense data and observation about the universe into a working system, that's what humanity does and has always done at small or big scales.
Do I really have to keep adressing the fact that people can't read and keep assuming i'm an atheist trying to burn some religious idol I couldn't care about either way even if my life depended on it? Atheism is another extreme, even if the theory has far less holes than its opposite. and no, it's not a 'mistake', as long as the unknown is concerned there's no right and wrong, I'm just saying that whether some religion's theory is right or not, if that claim is not based on some form of observation or internally coherent system then it'll just be a lucky guess if it ends up being right.
There's no fallacy in my argument, there's only you assuming you're so damn wise.

What is more foolish, to know what is not or cannot be known, or to pretend to know everything?

And In your learned opinion what was my point when noting the commonalities between religious beliefs and the definition of a delusion...?

 

[EcK]

I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with evolution. It has much more to do with information. We have changed what it means to be human in the past 150 years with technology.

That's like saying that a plane flying has nothing to do with the atmosphere or air pressure differentials reparted around its wings.

 

[EcK]

A mental illness is a delusion not shared by those around you.

While a religious belief is a delusion shared by those around you.

Therefore a religious belief is not a mental illness.

Yeah i sort of waited for somebody to bring that up, I'll just quote what i told oom on private chat yesterday
wait up

posted by me(amazing edit, i knoow):
it's simply that the mentally ill has progressively moved from 'out of the social norm' to a biological understanding of a disfunctionement of a specific function of the mind, yet this change somehow didn't apply to religious beliefs which from a purely rational standpoint is unjustified.

 

[EcK]

Mental hospitals are to protect the suicidal from themselves, and society from the homicidal.

This thread is an exercise in irony: a bunch of ignorant opinions spouted by arrogant people who imagine that they're smarter than others.

Making such a claim basically proves that you're the biased one, you'll notice how most arguments exposed at the start of the thread are either backed by dictionary definitions etc or at least could be developped along those lines if some people could try not to react in such a cliché way and waste my time by basically arguing dictionary definitions.

At least(!!), Victor has noted the social nature of the definition of the ill. So thank you victor for advancing the thread.

 

[Athenian200]

I don't think religious belief on its own makes people mentally ill.

I would believe that they were mentally ill if they let it get to the point that they put more stock in faith healing than medicine despite the teachings of experience, or disbelieve concretely provable science like weather or chemistry and insist that God is directly involved in those things.

But if they just believe in a God that exists in the afterlife, and can give people "insight" or bring about good through them, but doesn't directly interfere with the world, then they're reasonably sane, because you can't disprove the existence of a God in that sense. Or, even if they believe that the universe itself is sentient and thus is a sort of God, you can't disprove that either.

Basically, as long as their religious beliefs don't apply to the concrete world, and simply regard the unknowable, they're perfectly sane IMO.

There's also the matter that some people might not be religious because of literal belief in a God. You're giving them too much credit. They might simply see the Heaven and Hell concept as symbolic of being part of the safety of the faith community (Heaven), and not being a part of it, being an exile (Hell). Why do you think people say, "Damn you!" or "You're going to Hell!" to indicate disapproval? They might see praying to God as something of a highly respected luck ritual without really understanding the idea of God (like horseshoes or 4-leaf clovers).

Basically, a lot of people who are Christians may simply observe their faith for the same reason that they observe table manners, family traditions, or just about any other social norm they're exposed to. They just believe it's the "right" or "polite" way to be, possibly even associating it with being their community, thus invoking a kind of tribal tendency, seeing themselves as part of the Christian "tribe," if you will. A lot of people will go far to rationalize what their country does or believes, and its ideals, and the same often goes for their religion that they grew up with.

The draw to Christianity for many might well be the safety, generosity, and helpfulness of the Church community rather than the actual religion. I'm honestly jealous of that aspect of Christianity. They have a place to go every Sunday that brings their community together, and a set of teachings that encourages them to help one another. There's nothing like that for Atheists or Agnostics. People who knowingly compromise their intellectual integrity to be a part of this are weak, but not insane.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

If you would've said: Religious belief as a delusion, I would have hopped on "board" and said, F8 yeah, MF8er. But anyone, even the non-mentally ill can have temporary and permanent delusional anterior lobes.

For the record when I make mistakes, I give less of a fuck than anyone else I've ever met. Just ask my boss!

I'm an agnostic atheist(baby eater)