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  1. #21
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    You can prove a negative. It's obvious how. It should also be obvious I don't mean 100% proof, which can never be provided. (though that's not 100% proven )
    Then it's not proven. Your statement is ridiculous. When you deal with limited observation of the system (the universe of whatever else exists and related to the universe) you cannot prove or disprove anything, you can simply give a likelyhood, based on a model which is itself only accurate relatively to the test subjects provided by the environnement and the developing team.

    Proof is only possible in a closed and fully determined system. as a part of the universe we can never experiment in 'the whole universe' as the proof would had to be run in a bigger system than the actual perfectly observed universe. Our latest theories also seem to show that the universe isn't absolutly deterministic but has a degree of randomness to it.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Then it's not proven. Your statement is ridiculous. When you deal with limited observation of the system (the universe of whatever else exists and related to the universe) you cannot prove or disprove anything, you can simply give a likelyhood, based on a model which is itself only accurate relatively to the test subjects provided by the environnement and the developing team.
    And here I thought you would understand proof = very high probability, by my terms. By most people's terms, in fact.

    You statement applies to anything. Religious beliefs can't be disproven by your terms, but nothing else can either. So your point does not discriminate against religious belief, even slightly.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well, i'm glad for most people, maybe you'd care to illuminate me with your wisdom?
    Can't you work it out?

    "The train driver fell asleep and accidently hit the brakes! So the child wasn't run over!"
    "It's a miracle!"

    Here you go, the two most common definitions:-

    any amazing or wonderful occurrence
    a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

    Note how the second definition does not actually imply a break in the laws of nature. (though it does suggest it)

  3. #23
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Hasn't there been some research indicating that religious faith leads to a longer life and higher happiness levels than the non-religious? I'm sure I've read about this in a few different places. Not really making a point with that, except maybe to say that there might be a practical reason to have religious faith, which could, possibly, impact on whether or not it's a 'mental illness'.

    (for the record, I'm agnostic and do not think religious faith is a mental illness)
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  4. #24
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    And here I thought you would understand proof = very high probability, by my terms. By most people's terms, in fact.
    Most people can't repair a car or build a rocket engine. Your point being ... "the poor state of culture" or ..?
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    You statement applies to anything. Religious beliefs can't be disproven by your terms, but nothing else can either. So your point does not discriminate against religious belief, even slightly.
    I'll remind you that you were the one introducing that whole disproving thing, so you're arguing against yourself right now.

    Just saying


    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    "It's a miracle!"

    Here you go, the two most common definitions:-

    any amazing or wonderful occurrence
    a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

    Note how the second definition does not actually imply a break in the laws of nature. (though it does suggest it)
    Supernatural: adj.

    1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
    2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.

    no comment
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #25
    Member ilovetrannies's Avatar
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    No, I think it may be the opposite. Truly mentally ill people attach on religion as a way to rationalize their delusions of grandeur. Some naive people are religious or there are alot of stupid people in the world sadly. I am in atheist, I'm tired of trying to figure out people anymore. Plus, I'm a misanthropist. I hate people with deep and furious passion.:steam:

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'll remind you that you were the one introducing that whole disproving thing, so you're arguing against yourself right now.
    Your terms. My terms. Reading comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Supernatural: adj.

    1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
    2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.

    no comment
    Philosophy 101: How can something violate the laws of nature?

    Laws of nature = A description of what happens.

    If god exists, he is part of them.

    Point being, "breaks in the laws of nature", could be happening around you right now. You wouldn't know because they resemble the laws of nature. AKA, they are the laws of nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilovetrannies View Post
    No, I think it may be the opposite. Truly mentally ill people attach on religion as a way to rationalize their delusions of grandeur.
    That doesn't contradict the OP. Either way, by that reasoning, religious people are mentally ill.

    EDIT: "Erm & Eck" actually sounds pretty good.

    Maybe at some point I will call to witness, a religious person who is not mentally ill.

  7. #27
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Your terms. My terms. Reading comprehension.



    Philosophy 101: How can something violate the laws of nature?

    Laws of nature = A description of what happens.

    If god exists, he is part of them.

    Point being, "breaks in the laws of nature", could be happening around you right now. You wouldn't know because they resemble the laws of nature. AKA, they are the laws of nature.
    RAH, you've been completely irrational since the begining of this thread, you say you use 'common definition of terms' which make me wonder if you live in a coal mine, then you deny used definitions of natural vs supernatural AFTER I told you that I agree with an all natural world but use the PARAnormal term because it's the one actually used in every study ever made about what's usually called the 'paranormal'. And since miracles and so on have never actually been proven to be anything else than people going raving mad over statistically unsignificant details I don't think they're part of the DESCRIPTION of the natural world, hence, the use of the term paranormal. Yet if they were actually real, they'd be of course part of the natural world.

    If i have a dream about unicorns and don't realise it was a dream, then the experience happened for me in the natural world, yet it doesn't actually occure anywhere outside of my head as far as the perception of the rest of humanity goes. So a definition of the natural world can be paranormal to the rest of observations of the natural world.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #28
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I do by the way, truly consider most religious people to be mentally ill, this isn't some attempt at provocation and I'm not trying to insult anybody or force my own beliefs onto others.
    Do you have any recommended treatments?

  9. #29
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Do you have any recommended treatments?
    Psych Central: Delusional Disorder Treatment
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #30
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    So my point so far,
    I think religious belief could be classified as a delusion, a belief in natural laws not supported by general experience seem to develop and be substained even in the absence of evidence supporting said statements and presence of evidence supporting other theories.

    And while the non existence of a fact in an incompletly and imperfectly observed universe cannot be proven, the claim that so called 'supernatural' events religious beliefs and superstitions are based upon are part of the natural/experienced and not purely the result of 'wishful thinking' to say the least haven't been supported by scientific evidence so far.

    Past the passive support of the religious belief, there also seem to be a clear pattern of active denial concerning the implausibility or incongruence of different dogmas.
    For example: Every religion I've heard of has a cosmogenic theory that seem to be extremely unlikely and generally use extreme complexity -gods etc.- to explain lesser complexity -Universe-.
    The vision of the movement and nature of the planets and stars also never seemed to be the sort of answers an actual god like creature would have to know about[especially in habrahamic religions].
    Actually, the theories were exactly those a human society would have developped at that period, yet, the knowledge is claimed to be of divine origin.

    Now to continue with mental illnesses, what has often been noticed is that most mental illnesses seem to be coming from normal mechanisms of the brain that either run 'too slow' or are on overdrive.

    OCD disfunction of behavioral positive reinforcement mechanism.
    Excessive stress/phobia: disfunctional fight or flight response
    ...

    I can complement that part if somebody feel it doesn't convey the idea. My point being that mental illnesses don't seem to be emergent new traits but rather malfunctioning characters or socially anormal traits.

    Religion and the brain:
    Apparently, Epilepsy of the temporal lobe can give people extreme religious experience, people would go as far as puting religion as a higher source of pleasure than sex.
    By recreating artificially, using magnetic fields, this abnormal electric activity in the temporal lobe, michael persinger had 80% of the participants declare feeling an unobservable presence in the room with them.
    There's a strong religious belief in the presence of a god, spirits, or ancesters that can be felt.

    There are also plenty of studies explaining superstitions or OCDs using behavioral reinforcements. Example, chickens are left in a box and fed at random intervals, after a while, it'll happen that some chick gets fed after performing a particular action more than once and will start associating this action with feeding until the experimenters are left with a set of chicks each doing a specific action all the time because they came to associate those specific actions with 'getting fed'.

    Brain and evolution:
    So now one asks 'what if the answer is in 'who put god in our brain'.
    Evolution theories seem self sufficient and the initial abiogenesis needed to start the whole process has been shown to be plausible in the primordial earth, such as the synthesis of amino acids and their assemblage into growingly complex constructs.
    For more information
    Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The god idea:
    The issue here is always the same, introducing a god is equal to explaining what seems to be unlikely or complex with something EVEN more complex. Explaining the apparition of simple life by making an extremely unprobable god like conscience/intelligence create it isn't an answer, it just pushes back the 'origins' question one step backward and orders of magnitude further away in term of likelihood.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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