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Trying to have a logical convo with a fundamentalist.

therationaledge

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I am guitarhero, and my friend is brownster.

guitarhero902 (5:21:12 PM): hey question, when did god dropkick satan to the earth?
Brownster(5:21:25 PM): dropkick?
guitarhero902 (5:21:28 PM): lol
guitarhero902 (5:21:35 PM): roundhouse kick him to earth
guitarhero902 (5:21:37 PM): whatever
guitarhero902 (5:21:38 PM): lol
Brownster (5:22:09 PM): lucifer was the "music director" in heaven, and he became jelious of God, and wanted some of the worship to be directed at him
guitarhero902 (5:22:24 PM): i mean when, like garden of eden time, or jesus time
Brownster (5:22:57 PM): b4 the garden of eden
guitarhero902 (5:23:02 PM): ok
guitarhero902 (5:23:21 PM): and satan was a sinner, or sinned or whatnot
guitarhero902 (5:24:21 PM): cause he went against god?
Brownster (5:24:38 PM): basicly
guitarhero902 (5:24:49 PM): and the snake in eden was satan?
Brownster (5:25:12 PM): mhm
guitarhero902 (5:25:19 PM): ok
guitarhero902 (5:25:31 PM): who brought sin into the world?
Brownster (5:27:11 PM): well, the serpent aka the devil, taunted eve to break the one rule and become the first himan sinner
guitarhero902 (5:27:30 PM): so teh devil was teh first sinner, and eve was the first human sinner?
Brownster (5:27:42 PM): basicly
guitarhero902 (5:28:25 PM): So god banished the devil to earth
guitarhero902 (5:28:36 PM): and the devil is a sinner
guitarhero902 (5:28:41 PM): and the devil made humans sin
guitarhero902 (5:28:59 PM): so didnt god bring sin into the world through banishing the devil here?
Brownster (5:29:43 PM): no
guitarhero902 (5:29:59 PM): But he brought the devil into the world. And the devil was a sinner...
guitarhero902 (5:30:05 PM): before humans were
Brownster (5:31:20 PM): thats like saying because he is so powerful why does he let so much bad happen in the world
guitarhero902 (5:31:28 PM): ....not really
guitarhero902 (5:31:51 PM): Im saying, he dropped the devil to earht, and devil was the first sinner, so he brought sin to earth
Brownster (5:32:31 PM): well it doesnt say he banished him to earhth just that he kicked him out of heaven i think i havent read it
Brownster (5:32:38 PM): but
Brownster (5:32:58 PM): or maybe he just let it happen because he saw that it would eventually bring around somthing better
guitarhero902 (5:33:58 PM): it would make sense
guitarhero902 (5:34:21 PM): But you agree that if he did drop him to earth, and he is a sinner, then god brought the first sinner, logically
Brownster(5:34:32 PM): idk


Any ideas/comments/arguments? post away!
 

r.a

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I am guitarhero, and my friend is brownster.

guitarhero902 (5:21:12 PM): hey question, when did god dropkick satan to the earth?
Brownster(5:21:25 PM): dropkick?
guitarhero902 (5:21:28 PM): lol
guitarhero902 (5:21:35 PM): roundhouse kick him to earth
guitarhero902 (5:21:37 PM): whatever

LOL
 

therationaledge

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guitarhero902 (5:52:59 PM): do you think it is possible to believe in evolution and jesus?
Brownster(5:53:11 PM): no
Brownster (5:53:24 PM): they contradick each other
guitarhero902 (5:53:43 PM): I guess the argument is more the BIBLE and evolution contradicct eachother
guitarhero902 (5:54:04 PM): but thats moot because thats a whole different arguemnt
guitarhero902 (5:54:20 PM): Can people believe in America and Jesus?
Brownster (5:54:32 PM): huh
guitarhero902 (5:54:56 PM): Like, be a true blue patriot and be a christian?
Brownster (5:55:12 PM): what wrong with that?
guitarhero902 (5:55:24 PM): well american laws contradict bible laws
Brownster (5:55:38 PM): how
guitarhero902 (5:55:49 PM): The bible says to kill someone for saying God Dammit
Brownster (5:56:03 PM): ugh
guitarhero902 (5:56:14 PM): its a contradiction
Brownster (5:56:47 PM): ugh
guitarhero902 (5:56:55 PM): ? its not a contradiction?
guitarhero902 (5:58:08 PM): there are tons of them
Brownster(5:58:40 PM): mhm sure
guitarhero902 (5:58:50 PM): Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
guitarhero902 (5:58:57 PM): Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
guitarhero902 (5:59:11 PM): If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Brownster (5:59:27 PM): dude
guitarhero902 (5:59:27 PM): contradicitons, its pretty blackc and white, though i think american may actually agree with the last
Brownster(5:59:42 PM): u do realize that Jesus chaged alot of stufff when he died on the cross
Brownster (5:59:54 PM): it even says comthing to the effect of Jesus is the law now
guitarhero902 (5:59:57 PM): Changed?
guitarhero902 (6:00:22 PM): I thought it was 100% right? Explain please, maybe im not getting it
Brownster (6:00:31 PM): it is
Brownster (6:00:41 PM): but when jesus died one the cross he bcame the law
Brownster (6:00:52 PM): because the law had to change
guitarhero902 (6:00:54 PM): so he kinda like took over the family business?
Brownster (6:00:56 PM): it wasnt perfect
Brownster (6:01:12 PM): it was slay a lamb once a year to push ahead ur sins
guitarhero902 (6:01:14 PM): so its 100% right, but not perfect?
Brownster (6:01:17 PM): the sins never left
Brownster (6:01:23 PM): omg guy
Brownster (6:01:26 PM): seriously
guitarhero902 (6:01:29 PM): Im just asking
guitarhero902 (6:01:44 PM): if your right then defend it with an arguement
Brownster (6:01:45 PM): but u have a way of twisting stuff
guitarhero902 (6:01:49 PM): ...
guitarhero902 (6:01:57 PM): Its called rebuttle
 

Katsuni

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My biggest problem on this is whot happens after, if god is "all seeing and all knowing" then WTF is it that the devil TAKING THE FORM OF A SNAKE, as in NOT REALLY A SNAKE AT ALL but just some guy in a snake mask/suit or whotever, was evil... then why does god then punish ALL the snakes in the world by removing their legs... for something they didn't even do!?

The whole genesis thing is screwed up all the way through it, and then people say the bible is 100% accurate... it's like... no. If the bible's accurate, then god is a whiney little impotent brat who's self idolizing, never did a damn thing, and throws a tantrum when anyone questions him, despite never having earned the respect he demands. I refuse to believe in a god like that, and don't see why people think that it's such a great thing.
 

Laurie

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Is there any purpose in him really trying to talk to you? C'mon, you want him to share his faith with you but it's just so you can make fun of it?

Not to mention, it doesn't matter what subject it is that you talk to people who can't form a logical argument, they won't form one. I hate when people use lame friends who can't discuss on their "logical" level to pretend that that's how "logical" people would discuss Christianity if they actually talked to a LOGICAL person about it.
 

therationaledge

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Is there any purpose in him really trying to talk to you? C'mon, you want him to share his faith with you but it's just so you can make fun of it?

Not to mention, it doesn't matter what subject it is that you talk to people who can't form a logical argument, they won't form one. I hate when people use lame friends who can't discuss on their "logical" level to pretend that that's how "logical" people would discuss Christianity if they actually talked to a LOGICAL person about it.

Im not trying to talk to someone who has studied apologetics for years, im trying to talk to a average believer. Its not my fault if the average christian doesnt use logic when arguing religion.
I also didnt' attack him personally, I only made arguments against HIS arguements.
Not to mention, I HAVE talked with him and other christians about other things, that they have had perfectly logical beliefs.

I believe that your hostility is coming more from you trying to pigeonhole this into the past experiences with "people using lame friends" than anythign I have done. This conversation sums up every one I have had with a christian who believes the bible is completelly correct.

What you are saying is "dont argue with people who cant think logically" So basically if I view anything as illogical, laws, beliefs, actions, I cannot argue with them because they must be illogical, so its not worth it.

EDIT: ALso, if a Christian would like to step forward to argue about how Christianity is logical, feel free.
 

Thalassa

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Trying to talk him out of his beliefs is totally counterproductive and unnecessary. Trying to convert a Christian to atheism is just as rude as a Christian uninvitedly trying to convert people they meet to chuch-goers.

You're not trying to have a logical discussion. You're picking on him. Why? Why don't you just talk to a more "logical" Christian instead if you're really curious about their beliefs?
 

Thalassa

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What you are saying is "dont argue with people who cant think logically" So basically if I view anything as illogical, laws, beliefs, actions, I cannot argue with them because they must be illogical, so its not worth it.

Yes, also, it's a pointless waste of time to argue with certain people about certain things, especially if they have a clear problem with logic. You're not going to magically save them or teach them anything, so why bother?
 

therationaledge

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Trying to talk him out of his beliefs is totally counterproductive and unnecessary. Trying to convert a Christian to atheism is just as rude as a Christian uninvitedly trying to convert people they meet to chuch-goers.

You're not trying to have a logical discussion. You're picking on him. Why? Why don't you just talk to a more "logical" Christian instead if you're really curious about their beliefs?

Talk him out of his beliefs? You make this pejorative. If a child believed that a boogeyman was going to kill them for wearing two kinds of clothing, why is it wrong to point out there is no proof of this?

Im not trying to convert anyone, but I have a problem with flawed logic.
And I'm alwasy willing to argue my beliefs, its hones them, and allows for new concepts.

Convert; To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief: convert pagans to Christianity; was converted to pacifism by the war.

Freethought to me is more a process for forming a belief rather than one in itself, as two freethinkers can be drastically different.

Freethinking is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any other dogma. The cognitive application of freethought is known as freethinking, and practitioners of freethought are known as freethinkers.

And as far as the average person not using logic, by no means does this mean they should not be confronted with it.
 

Laurie

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There are/were lots of "logical" people who believe in Christianity, and a lot of other things that can't be proven or disproven. Sometimes beliefs don't fit with "logic"

It feels good to feel better than other people sometimes though.
 

Thalassa

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Talk him out of his beliefs? You make this pejorative. If a child believed that a boogeyman was going to kill them for wearing two kinds of clothing, why is it wrong to point out there is no proof of this?

Im not trying to convert anyone, but I have a problem with flawed logic.
And I'm alwasy willing to argue my beliefs, its hones them, and allows for new concepts.

Convert; To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief: convert pagans to Christianity; was converted to pacifism by the war.

Freethought to me is more a process for forming a belief rather than one in itself, as two freethinkers can be drastically different.

Freethinking is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any other dogma. The cognitive application of freethought is known as freethinking, and practitioners of freethought are known as freethinkers.


I'm happy for you. But people don't want you going around enforcing your judgement of their flawed logic on them any more than you want them enforcing their judgement of your flawed morality, no matter the semantics.

Some people just don't want to engage in the philosophical debate. Just accept it and move on to someone else.
 

therationaledge

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Yes, also, it's a pointless waste of time to argue with certain people about certain things, especially if they have a clear problem with logic. You're not going to magically save them or teach them anything, so why bother?

Because it educates me.

Also, if someon said "i am not comfertable/ something else, in discussing this, i wouldnt"
 

therationaledge

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I'm happy for you. But people don't want you going around enforcing your judgement of their flawed logic on them any more than you want them enforcing their judgement of your flawed morality, no matter the semantics.

Some people just don't want to engage in the philosophical debate. Just accept it and move on to someone else.


Enforcing? Bad choice of words. I hardly threatend to butcher his family if he didnt believe me.
I was not impolite, I did not personally attack him in anyway. It was his choice to debate with me.

Basically YOUR arguements are that I should not argue because

1. It is the same as trying to convert someone (though it isnt)
2. I am trying to enforce it on someone (though I wasnt)
3. I was being rude (though I did what you do in a debate, and did not attack him personally)
4. That i should argue using logic with someon who is less logical (which I dont agree with)
5. That i shouldnt argue with someone who doesn watn to (which i wasnt, and agree with.)
 

Laurie

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So what is your point of posting this? You want people to just agree with you that "fundamentalists" aren't logical?
 

Thalassa

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Enforcing? Bad choice of words. I hardly threatend to butcher his family if he didnt believe me.
I was not impolite, I did not personally attack him in anyway. It was his choice to debate with me.

Basically YOUR arguements are that I should not argue because

1. It is the same as trying to convert someone (though it isnt)
2. I am trying to enforce it on someone (though I wasnt)
3. I was being rude (though I did what you do in a debate, and did not attack him personally)
4. That i should argue using logic with someon who is less logical (which I dont agree with)
5. That i shouldnt argue with someone who doesn watn to (which i wasnt, and agree with.)

Actually, the second convo seemed pretty impolite to me, and had a strong overtone of "I want to show you how stupid your religious beliefs are."

In fact, the title of trying to have a logical conversation with a fundamentalist implies that you assume that fundamentalists are never logical and you are superior to them because you are.

I'm sure they feel the same way about sinners who won't meet them half way in a conversion convo about accepting Jesus as your personal savior.

Besides, logic doesn't apply to all situations, like love and religious beliefs usually.
 

JocktheMotie

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It's hard to debate things logically when someone is being intentionally obtuse, and has zero ability to comprehend. I'll let you figure out who I'm talking about, I'll be back in a couple of days.
 

therationaledge

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Actually, the second convo seemed pretty impolite to me, and had a strong overtone of "I want to show you how stupid your religious beliefs are."

In fact, the title of trying to have a logical conversation with a fundamentalist implies that you assume that fundamentalists are never logical and you are superior to them because you are.

I'm sure they feel the same way about sinners who won't meet them half way in a conversion convo about accepting Jesus as your personal savior.

Besides, logic doesn't apply to all situations, like love and religious beliefs usually.

Now we are arguing about diff beliefs, because i DO think that logic applies EVERYwhere.
And I am implying that fundamentalists arent logical, but mostly in religious areas. NEver did i question anything else.

And two people "feeling" anything does not make it true. For me either.

And if you think that I feel superior, then you are right. About that one thing, at least. And there are those who are superior to me, in certain things.
Many things, in fact.

If you can lift 100 pounds more than someone are you not superior IN THAT ASPECT than the other person?
Im just being honest because you asked a question.
But do i feel superior to everyone and in every way to my friend? No.
 

Thalassa

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Oh wait. I also want to explain to you what your friend wasn't successful at getting across to you.

When Jesus came LOVE became the law, and all of the old laws were pretty much rendered useless (the stuff about burning animals and homosexuals and all of that nonsense) by the Law of Love (forgiveness, charity, faith, peace, etc.)

All people are sinners. No one is perfect. No person can follow the perfect letter of any law, which is why love and forgiveness are necessary. God is love. Jesus came to bring that message of salvation.

It's weird because I understood what he was trying to explain to you, but he wasn't capable of doing it. That's why I felt like you were picking on him.
 
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